Episode Transcript
Don Mock 0:19
Alright, Episode 12. We’re back, and Cuyler’s back. Rob is still on vacay.
Cuyler 0:24
Still hitting the slopes.
Don Mock 0:25
Yeah, still hitting the slopes, having a good time. Well deserved time. So, since it’s the two of us again, both on the design side, art director, designer front. Thought it might be interesting to keep that sort of design motif rolling, and talk about typography. Mission critical importance in the world of design, dare I say, typography, right? I would almost say that typography is kind of like the uniform of a company. Here’s what I mean by that. To have a little bit of levity with it. Different jobs, have different types of uniforms and functions, right? We always joke, you’d never take legal advice from a guy in a jean jacket, right? It’s not like, isn’t that Larry David, kind of thing, right?
Cuyler 1:07
I guess. I mean, I probably wouldn’t myself.
Don Mock 1:09
Yeah, I mean, lawyers, we kind of need them to look like lawyers. Another funny example of that would be pharmacists, right? You only take your prescription drugs.
Cuyler 1:19
Without the white jacket.
Don Mock 1:20
Yeah. Yeah. Only take their prescription drugs from the guys with the white, even though we know they’re wearing like a t-shirt and jeans under there.
Cuyler 1:25
Yeah, well I even prefer a button up underneath it. If it’s just a t shirt.
Don Mock 1:30
I’m telling you, though, you roll into CVS, it might be sweatpants under there.
Cuyler 1:30
That is true. That is true.
Don Mock 1:34
Saturday morning, sweatpant pharmacist, right? Now, if they weren’t wearing that white coat, do we still take prescription drugs? You know what I mean? It’s the uniform they wear.
Cuyler 1:43
Right.
Don Mock 1:44
So, I think you know, typography in general. That’s what I mean by, it could be thought of as the uniform of different companies, right? Type evokes emotion. We’ve got expressive type, for example, I’m wearing a t-shirt with my favorite sports team on it.
Cuyler 2:03
The Niners.
Don Mock 2:04
Yeah, go Niners. Sports and athletic teams have kind of a uniform of their type, right? Think about type of the end zone, or basketball, or baseball, or whatever the case may be, and there’s an aggressive quality to it. There’s a fast quality to it.
Cuyler 2:18
It’s got to feel sporty.
Don Mock 2:19
Yeah, exactly. Right.
Cuyler 2:20
Some are a little more. The ones that lean into their tradition, more.
Don Mock 2:25
Well, I think if we weren’t..
Cuyler 2:27
The Browns, or Green Bay.
Don Mock 2:28
Yeah, if we were to dissect by league you’d have a difference in types of typography.
Cuyler 2:33
Right. Baseball, we get a lot of script.
Don Mock 2:35
Yeah, exactly. Well said, so baseball, we got script. The NFL, you’re gonna have the big blocky kind of chunky letters, but with some Serif with some cuts in there, some, that type of thing, right? But, versus you’re gonna talk about history, soccer, right? We talked about 200 year old soccer teams.
Cuyler 2:49
Right.
Don Mock 2:49
I mean, those sports logos are kind of more the crest, those heritage.
Cuyler 2:55
That’s much more of an old style.
Don Mock 2:57
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, but I think, typography as the uniform of a company, which is kind of interesting. You wouldn’t want, let’s keep the theme rolling, you wouldn’t want your lawyers logo to look like the Atlanta Falcons, right? You want it to look like they’re a professional lawyer. So, it’s interesting to think about typography from an expressive perspective, or maybe even good companies that utilize great type, you don’t even notice it, it’s just seamless to the organization, right?
Cuyler 3:31
Yeah, I would say that that’s,with most good design.
Don Mock 3:35
Yeah.
Cuyler 3:36
It’s done, well.
Don Mock 3:36
Yeah.
Cuyler 3:37
You’re not noticing it, unless you’re a designer. And then you’re noticing all type everywhere.
Don Mock 3:46
Exactly, exactly. We want to make sure that, different type and different utilizations are treated correctly, right? So, think about, if I’ve got a brochure and I’ve got to read a bunch of copy, right? I want to make sure that the body copy is set a certain way, or certain size, certain letting, kerning. It’s interesting to think that words make shapes, right?
Cuyler 4:06
Right.
Don Mock 4:06
And, you know, all caps, for example.
Cuyler 4:09
It’s harder to read.
Don Mock 4:10
It is much harder to read. You stole my thunder. Because if we think about, for those of us listening out here, you think about the word “the” and the word “and.” You can almost see the shape of the word, right? Because we’ve read those in century school book, for literally our whole life. So, we don’t actually read each individual letter anymore. You don’t read..
Cuyler 4:31
No, we look at the whole word.
Don Mock 4:32
Yeah, yeah. Then, proper type gives you a shortcut in reading, right? So, your subheads in a brochure, all caps.
Cuyler 4:41
Sure.
Don Mock 4:41
You know, you can get away with that.
Cuyler 4:43
With a short sentence or a headline.
Don Mock 4:46
Yeah.
Cuyler 4:47
If you’re reading all caps, I mean, looks like Donald Trump’s tweets or something.
Don Mock 4:53
All caps.
Cuyler 4:54
Yeah. Basically with without the ascenders or descenders, you wind up with a blockier, more standard rectangular shape to every word.
Don Mock 5:03
Sure. Sure.
Cuyler 5:03
Which makes it harder to read.
Don Mock 5:05
It does make it harder to read.
Cuyler 5:06
To my knowledge, I feel like a Serif actually gives you even more readability.
Don Mock 5:11
It does.
Cuyler 5:12
Yeah. So, that’s why a lot of books are in some kind of old style Serif, like Garamond or something.
Don Mock 5:16
Correct. Correct. Obviously the two main, the bridge and typography, right? The big split, in terms of on ramp and off ramp would be, some type, being what’s traditionally Serif which is what we think about. The letterforms that have the little ears, the little tick marks all the extra stuff, right? And then Sans Serif is more of the modern, cleaner, simpler.
Cuyler 5:37
Though, there was a point in time that they thought it looked grotesque. Which is why so many Sans Serif have grotesque in the name of the typeface.
Don Mock 5:46
Who are those people?
Cuyler 5:48
It was the Germans, and it was the Swiss, and the Germans before it became more common.
Don Mock 5:55
Well, what was the original name of Helvetica? It had some horrible name, which I can’t remember. Maybe we’ll put it in the show notes or something.
Cuyler 6:01
It was New Haas Grotesque.
Don Mock 6:02
Is that what it was?
Cuyler 6:03
Yeah.
Don Mock 6:03
New Haas Grotesque. Okay.
Cuyler 6:04
I believe I have a version of that. It’s slightly different now.
Don Mock 6:07
I’ve watched Helvetica, the movie and I can’t remember that. Which is a great movie. If you’re a type nerd out there, definitely watch Helvetica, the movie. Because, basically half of the movie is, this is the greatest typeface ever created, and it’s ubiquitous, and it’s everywhere.
Cuyler 6:19
Right.
Don Mock 6:19
It should be used for everything. The other half is, the new type designers, and they’re like Helvetica is an abomination. Never use this thing. It stands for corporate America. You know what I mean?
Cuyler 6:20
Because it’s so ubiquitous, it breeds contempt.
Don Mock 6:34
Exactly. Any examples that come to mind off the top of your head? We’re talking about sort of good type, I guess, but bad type?
Cuyler 6:44
Bad type.
Don Mock 6:44
Well, bad type, any thoughts?
Cuyler 6:45
It’s easy. We all know what they are. It’s Comic Sans.
Don Mock 6:49
Okay.
Cuyler 6:50
Papyrus.
Don Mock 6:50
Papyrus.
Cuyler 6:52
And you mentioned law firms. The one I hate, and you see it all the time in law firms, is Copper Plate.
Don Mock 6:56
Copper Plates’ overused. Papyrus is culturally relevant right now, because Avatar is the number one movie in the world again, right? Avatar, too that guy rolls out of bed every 10 years and makes billion dollar movies. And I remember that got a tremendous amount of flack, to the point where there was an SNL skit.
Cuyler 7:18
Yeah, with Ryan Gosling.
Don Mock 7:19
About one to about Papyrus, utilized for the logotype and also I believe the subtitles of the Na’vi, in the movie.
Cuyler 7:26
Was it really?
Don Mock 7:27
Yeah, it was on screen, you know? I think they got a lot of flack because Papyrus is kind of one of those default fonts that comes with your you know, your..
Cuyler 7:35
Microsoft.
Don Mock 7:35
Out of the box computer.
Cuyler 7:36
Yeah, exactly.
Don Mock 7:37
So yeah, Papyrus is bad. You mentioned Comic Sans. The first thing that comes to mind, and then I’ll ask you this question, if you’ve got something that comes to mind. When I think of Comic Sans, I think of the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers. I believe his name is Dan Gilbert. I could be wrong.
Cuyler 7:52
When he typed like an offical document.
Don Mock 7:54
When LeBron left to go to South Beach, right? It did the whole, the decision on ESPN right? It was I’m leaving, playing in the my hometown Cavaliers, and I’m going to play for the Miami Heat. He typeset a scathing letter, in the Cleveland newspaper at the time, right? That was all, Cleveland’s going to be great, and we are going to win a championship way before LeBron does that. But, the entire thing was typesetting Comic Sans.
Cuyler 8:19
Yeah. What a joke.
Don Mock 8:20
Which, to me is a great example of type being kind of a uniform, right? It’s, I’m trying to make this serious message. I’m trying to support the fans and do whatever, yet it’s all typeset in a comical, whimsical, looking..
Cuyler 8:36
Soft, rounded.
Don Mock 8:38
Yeah, it makes no sense, right?
Cuyler 8:41
I see it also. There was a restaurant that opened up near my house. It’s a remarkably good place to get homestyle Cajun food. It’s called Fork In The Road.
Don Mock 8:53
Okay.
Cuyler 8:54
But, they use on their sign of the building.
Don Mock 8:57
It’s Comic Sans?
Cuyler 8:58
It’s not Comic Sans, it’s something very similar.
Don Mock 9:00
Oh, no.
Cuyler 9:00
It has these bubbly.
Don Mock 9:01
Thought it might be Brush Script.
Cuyler 9:03
It’s not Brush Script, but that would be better. But, it’s one of those things. You look at it, and it doesn’t convey the quality of food that you get at that place.
Don Mock 9:16
Yeah, it doesn’t match.
Cuyler 9:19
No, yeah. Luxury brands are a good example to look at where everything is ultra clean, whether they’re using Sans Serif, or whether Calvin Klein used Avant Garde, thin or something like that. Or, if it’s a Serif, if you think of Tiffany’s, or I think Gucci has something, it’s not Optima, but it’s one of those fonts. A lot of them take their flair.
Don Mock 9:43
Yeah, they take the base, Future or whatever, and then they kind of customize it, tinker with it a little bit, to create their own version of, this is the Calvin Klein.
Cuyler 9:52
Tiffany’s has its own typeface. It’s from the same guy who did Gotham.
Don Mock 9:58
Oh, really?
Cuyler 9:58
Which is our typeface.
Don Mock 9:59
Okay, nice.
Cuyler 10:00
And now it’s become the typeface of politics.
Don Mock 10:03
Yeah, Gotham is all over the place.
Cuyler 10:05
Yeah.
Don Mock 10:06
I don’t want to say it’s becoming the new Helvetica.
Cuyler 10:07
It is kind of.
Don Mock 10:08
It’s kind of everywhere.
Cuyler 10:09
It’s great typeface.
Don Mock 10:10
It is a great typeface. So yeah, you bring up a good point that luxury, imagine for those out there listening. Imagine the Four Seasons Hotel typeset in Comic Sans.
Cuyler 10:20
In Chalkduster.
Don Mock 10:23
Yeah, that’s a deep cut right there. Is the Four Seasons still the Four Seasons if it’s in Chalkduster? You know what I mean? Does it still emote that same vibe? The answer is no, right?
Cuyler 10:34
No.
Don Mock 10:34
From a design perspective, it doesn’t live up to the billing, right?
Cuyler 10:37
Right.
Don Mock 10:39
So you know, type is something. I think that when it’s done well, most consumers don’t even notice it. They just kind of as part of the brand, it doesn’t matter if it’s all caps, it doesn’t matter if it’s Serif or Sans Serif, it just fits with the rest of the unification of the brand, right? It’s only when it’s done extremely poorly, that it really sticks out like a sore thumb.
Cuyler 10:58
Basically, before you read anything, there is something given off by the typeface, that whatever you’re reading is second, and particularly when it’s a brand, a single name kind of thing.
Don Mock 11:10
Yeah.
Cuyler 11:11
It puts a little bit more emphasis on it. A good example would be, MoMA would never be in the same kind of Serif font that The Met is.
Don Mock 11:20
Yeah, exactly.
Cuyler 11:21
Because The Met has older, more classical style art versus modern style art. So, that kind of thing is important when thinking about whether you’re doing brand design, or whether you’re doing, as we mentioned yesterday, the menu for a Mexican restaurant.
Don Mock 11:39
Correct.
Cuyler 11:40
Now, sometimes there are brands that go too minimal, and then they lose their, and I would say Taco Bell is one of them.
Don Mock 11:47
Where they kind of lost their vibe?
Cuyler 11:49
Yeah, they went to that ultra, because there’s a trend of making things ultra minimal.
Don Mock 11:53
Yeah, exactly.
Cuyler 11:53
They went to that super simple, Sans Serif. I do miss the old, and I don’t think that that’s representative of their food.
Don Mock 12:02
Well, if you want to keep, I don’t know what is representative of their food. But, if you want to keep that QSR thought going, it’s important that Burger King went backwards, right?
Cuyler 12:12
It did.
Don Mock 12:12
It went back to the old.
Cuyler 12:13
Retro.
Don Mock 12:13
To the retro, you know what I mean? And it’s, God love McDonald’s. They’ve never really changed.
Cuyler 12:19
No.
Don Mock 12:19
They’ve tinkered with the arches a little bit here.
Cuyler 12:21
A little bit.
Don Mock 12:21
But, for the most part, that’s a global brand that has just held true, right? That’s the thing, but Burger Kings kind of been all over the place. Wendy’s, a little bit of modernization. But yeah, Taco Bell, you’re correct. I would almost say that in the interest of being current and modern, they kind of stripped away all the vibe.
Cuyler 12:40
All the personality.
Don Mock 12:40
Yeah, great word. Personality. And made it like neutral almost, you know what I mean? Bland.
Cuyler 12:45
Right, and there are some things that don’t need to take that route. Some things are best when the type is more like tofu, where it’s just taking on the flavor of what it’s around.
Don Mock 12:46
Sure.
Cuyler 12:52
Which is one reason why Helvetica is such a popular font.
Don Mock 13:01
Correct.
Cuyler 13:02
But for a brand, like Taco Bell, I don’t know. I was not a fan of that rebrand, and I usually do like simplified, minimalist kind of stuff. But, it doesn’t fit for everyone.
Don Mock 13:18
Yeah, so speaking of your thoughts on the matter, do you have a favorite typeface? Or does it constantly evolve?
Cuyler 13:24
I would say it evolves. I don’t want to speak too much about Helvetica. I do love Helvetica.
Don Mock 13:31
And you can speak, hey man, it’s our podcast. We can stay for as long as we want on it.
Cuyler 13:35
Designers hate Helvetica, just because of how ubiquitous it is.
Don Mock 13:39
Sure, sure.
Cuyler 13:40
But, I love that all the terminals come to straight lines, and I love Swiss design, and it just suits it.
Don Mock 13:49
It’s a perfectly designed typeface.
Cuyler 13:51
Yeah, it is. It is.
Don Mock 13:53
And it’s been around forever. And that says something about its quality. I mean, it’s been around forever.
Cuyler 13:57
And it’s everywhere. I mean, it’s everywhere, right? You don’t go a single day in your life without seeing Helvetica.
Don Mock 14:04
That is a statement that I bet most people listening to this never even thought about, but is 100% true. I’m not anti Helvetica if that’s the favorite. It’s a good one.
Cuyler 14:17
I like Gotham a lot too.
Don Mock 14:18
Yeah.
Cuyler 14:18
I never used Gotham prior to starting here, because it’s a very expensive typeface.
Don Mock 14:25
Yeah, we stick it in from time to time.
Cuyler 14:27
Yeah, it’s a very good one.
Don Mock 14:29
I think my my new favorite one is definitely Knockout. I love the Knockout family. I love the vibe, with the boxing theme. Obviously, the Cruiserweight Welter went all the way up to Sumo, which is fantastic.
Cuyler 14:43
Yeah, Phantomweight I believe.
Don Mock 14:45
There’s Flyweight. Featherweight. These are all the different descriptions of the thicknesses of the typeface. The boldness, and also too I think, I’m not a big italic fan. I can’t stand italics. You got to use them a little bit here and there, but it just bothers me. I don’t think that any typeface looks great in a Sans Serif italic, and now I am so far down the the nerd hole.
Cuyler 15:07
I’ll tell you one that does the Sans Serif font italic.
Don Mock 15:10
Hit me.
Cuyler 15:10
Sans Serif, or is Futura condensed extra bold. That’s Nike.
Don Mock 15:16
Yeah, well, okay. Alright. Alright.
Cuyler 15:17
Oh yeah, that one, I liked.
Don Mock 15:20
We got four letters, though, you know what I mean? It’s not like we’ve typeset a subhead.
Cuyler 15:23
No, you can’t do a headline in all italics.
Don Mock 15:25
But, Knockout. There is no italic, which I love. Alright, flip the script. We’ve been chatting a lot about things we don’t like. Anything that hits your mind of what you love, or anything you’ve noticed from a good type perspective, nothing’s coming to my mind right now. That’s why I’m asking you.
Cuyler 15:38
What I’ve noticed recently is this bubbly old style Serif coming back into popularity.
Don Mock 15:50
Like a Cooper?
Cuyler 15:52
Kind of like Cooper, but if you look at, trying to think of some brand examples, there was that brand, Good Jones or something like that?
Don Mock 16:00
Okay.
Cuyler 16:01
Typeface is similar to Bookman that have these swashes.
Don Mock 16:04
Yeah, with the extended terminals, that kind of then bubble out?
Cuyler 16:07
Exactly. Some of those, I’ve noticed have come back into some kind of popularity with brands that used to be ultra minimal, like Urban Outfitters brand. Now, you’re starting to see some of these brands, not them in particular, but use this kind of old style Serif.
Don Mock 16:23
Yeah.
Cuyler 16:24
Which I think is interesting, because I would say in the last 15 years, so many brands switched from, if their brand wasn’t a Serif, they switched to a Sans Serif.
Don Mock 16:36
Flip flops.
Cuyler 16:37
I think it’s refreshing to bring back some of these Serif fonts. You just don’t see them as much anymore.
Don Mock 16:43
No, that’s a good point. I don’t know what the cycle is. Is it a 30 year cycle? It’s like the 90’s are cool again, now.
Cuyler 16:50
Yeah.
Don Mock 16:51
Like the 90’s are back. High waisted jeans, from Friends, is back. I mean, we do have this cycle of what’s fashionable and what’s part of popular culture, right?
Cuyler 17:03
And type does the same thing.
Don Mock 17:06
As I mentioned on an earlier podcast, I’m all about the metal. So, heavy metal logos and bands always look aggressive.
Cuyler 17:13
There’s the ones that you can’t even read at all.
Don Mock 17:15
Yeah, that’s too far.
Cuyler 17:16
The Cannibal Corpse.
Don Mock 17:20
Yeah, I can’t even listen to that. His double bass drum the entire time. But, as you are wearing a Black Sabbath shirt.
Cuyler 17:27
I am.
Don Mock 17:27
Which looks super cool. So, I think that’s it for type. Just some ramblings and thoughts on typography. I think it’s interesting, both of our opinions on how type effects design. It is mission critical.
Cuyler 17:42
It is.
Don Mock 17:43
But, can you use it to stand out? Absolutely.
Cuyler 17:47
Sure.
Don Mock 17:47
Is it the right thing to use to stand out? Maybe not, I don’t know.
Cuyler 17:50
Not in every situation.
Don Mock 17:52
It’s different for different brands.
Cuyler 17:55
Right.
Don Mock 17:55
Well, I think that’s it for today. Feel free to drop us a review. You can find us on the socials @mocktheagency, and we will talk to you guys next time. Thanks.
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