Episode Transcript
Cuyler 0:19
Cuyler you are quick on the buttons
Music button?
Don Mock 0:22
Yeah, I usually count us in three to one and then Rob takes a beat but you are like three to one boom! Like right on there.
Cuyler 0:29
Well, I drop the music back in.
Don Mock 0:31
Oh, okay. So well editor corrects. Okay.
Cuyler 0:34
It helps me line up when we actually start.
Don Mock 0:37
Gotcha. All right, Episode 28. We’re back. As you can tell Cuyler is back as well, which is super exciting, ready to be fired up and have another phone conversation. For today, thought we could chat about our favorite graphic design or advertising shows, TV shows, movies, things like that, right. And you had asked me a question off air, which I totally forgot already. What was the question?
Cuyler 1:02
Well, are we talking about the design within shows? Or shows slash documentaries about design?
Don Mock 1:11
I’m gonna say the answer to that question is, yes.
Cuyler 1:15
Okay (laughter).
Don Mock 1:15
We can talk about both. All right. So when I spring this on you, do you have any immediate things that pop into mind? I mean, the immediate one for me, obviously, is Mad Men, right? That’s probably the most widely known show and critically acclaimed about advertising in general.
Cuyler 1:30
That’s the one that you mentioned that made me think okay, we’re talking more about design within the show. Mad Men does a great job.
Don Mock 1:37
That’s what I was gonna say Mad Men does. It’s a double threat. I would say that it does a great job of showing what that world was kind of about. I mean it sensationalized of course, you know.
Cuyler 1:47
Sure.
Don Mock 1:48
But I think it was pretty true to the era, right. And then they also did a really, really good job as they won a gazillion awards for it about the art direction, the design, the costumes, you know what I mean? you know, for us ad nerds, we would sort of look, I’d always be looking at the background, like, oh, they’re down in the art department. And it’s like, what’s hanging on the wall?
Cuyler 2:09
I remember, Roger Sterling’s apartment, changes dramatically. Or not apartment, but you know…
Don Mock 2:15
Yeah, his penthouse suite, or whatever the deal is, right? Yeah.
Cuyler 2:18
What is cool about that show, and what must have been a good or a fun part of being part of the set design, is that because it starts in the very early 1960s? I can’t remember if it starts in 1960 or not.
Don Mock 2:32
I don’t remember what year either.
Cuyler 2:33
But I want to say it more or less traverses the whole decade.
Don Mock 2:36
Yeah.
Cuyler 2:37
And, so at the beginning of the 60s, even though as a kid, everyone always makes the 60s out to be like the whole peace love groovy hippie thing. Which, is really just like the ladder to three years of the 60s. And so the design is much more straight laced 50s style design. Even their haircuts and everything.
Don Mock 2:58
You got the horn rimmed glasses coming in on the account folks, you still have a lot of 50s remnants bleeding into the beginning of the 60s.
Cuyler 3:03
And then by the end of it, you got, you know, much more, I want to say like Frank Stella style, a lot of black and white.
Don Mock 3:11
I mean, I haven’t seen a show in a while. Do we have some butterfly collars popping in the end of the I don’t think we do yet. Do we?
Cuyler 3:16
I think so. Yeah.
Don Mock 3:17
It’s been a hot minute since I watched it, so.
Cuyler 3:19
A couple of them grew their hair out. There was one guy who really became super hippie dippie.
Don Mock 3:24
Yeah. One of the guys down in the art department.
Cuyler 3:26
Yeah, the art guys.
Don Mock 3:27
Yeah.
Cuyler 3:27
Which is not that shocking.
Don Mock 3:28
Well, it’s interesting, you know. We’ve talked on previous podcasts about different types of agencies, right? Account driven versus creative driven, you know, that type of thing, right? I mean, that was one way to do it. In terms of like, Draper obviously was a creative director, and he was more of a copywriter. But really, you kind of had the art department down on the other floor, kind of over in the corner.
Cuyler 3:52
They seem to have everything pretty separated. In terms of who was managing accounts. I think Ken the guy who got his foot run over by a lawnmower? Yeah, a couple of the guys definitely were trying to work their way up into account managment.
Don Mock 4:05
Cosgrove, right? Ken Cosgrove?
Cuyler 4:07
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
Don Mock 4:08
I think he got a shot or something didn’t he get shot? I don’t know hunting trip with one of the clients? I mean…
Cuyler 4:13
I think he did. Bad Things continued to happen.
Don Mock 4:17
Well, I think the point we’re trying to make though, is it was kind of more on the account side of life, sort of a prism through the account side of life, outside of women and advertising, which was a great also part of the show as well. It wasn’t really focused on the entire creative process outside of Don, you know, inside meetings and things like that.
Cuyler 4:36
Right.
Don Mock 4:36
So but I think Mad Men classic, you know, everybody loves it. But you had an interesting take on sort of the topic is it design within shows? Is it documentaries? I mean, what other kinds of inspiration or design sort of thoughts do you have?
Cuyler 4:51
You know, I’m a big documentary person.
Don Mock 4:53
I do know that.
Cuyler 4:53
And I usually especially like senior year of school, I remember really trying to find a bunch of documentaries. I could get a little bit more from what the professional world of design is like versus, you know, what you get at university which is totally different.
Don Mock 5:12
Yeah.
Cuyler 5:14
And the good one that I remember is, it’s on Netflix. It’s called The Art of design. Okay. And what’s cool about this one is it covers lots of different kinds of designers.
Don Mock 5:24
Yes. It’s not just graphic design.
Cuyler 5:26
No, the first episode. I can’t remember the person’s name, but he does a lot of covers for the new New Yorker.
Don Mock 5:32
We got to do more show prep for these things, don’t we?
Cuyler 5:34
We do. I know some of their names. I think there was there was an episode about Paula Scher, which was super inspirational, you know?
Don Mock 5:43
Yeah. My wife loves Paula Scher.
Cuyler 5:45
Yeah, everyone else Paula Scher.
Don Mock 5:46
Hey Bring in ‘Da Noise, Bring in ‘Da Funk it’s been in a design annuals for like 30 years it feels like.
Cuyler 5:49
She’s done so much. Recognizable work.
Don Mock 5:52
Yeah, absolutely.
Cuyler 5:53
I think she did Tiffany’s. I know she redid some of the poster work for MoMA. She’s most famous probably for the More Than a Feeling Boston cover with the spaceships.
Don Mock 6:06
Really?
Cuyler 6:06
Yeah. She worked at CBS Records
Don Mock 6:08
I didn’t know that.
Cuyler 6:09
That’s like, she said that when she dies, it’s gonna say on her tombstone, like, the woman who did the Boston Cover.
Don Mock 6:17
That’s awesome.
Cuyler 6:17
She’s worried that’s what she’ll be known for.
Don Mock 6:19
Well, I mean, is that better than the City logo redesign merging with Travelers and all that?
Cuyler 6:25
I liked that rebrand. Yeah, but you know, ultra minimum. Well, she also did. Bruce Springsteen, Darkness On The Edge of Town. Which was very simple, just a, photograph with like a typewriter typeface. But that’s how she got her start with CBS Records.
Don Mock 6:41
So this one series covers a lot of different design is what you’re saying?
Cuyler 6:45
Yes. Yeah. So there’s one on Bjarke Ingels, who was an architect. He’s doing some really cool what he calls hedonistic sustainability.
Don Mock 6:55
Wow.
Cuyler 6:55
Which is supposed to be like, both environmental and sustainable, but also improve living.
Don Mock 7:00
I will say a quick side note architecture does a great job of branding terms.
Cuyler 7:05
Oh, yeah.
Don Mock 7:06
Right? I mean, you know, the Envelope House.
Cuyler 7:10
I love that building.
Don Mock 7:11
Yeah. But but just in terms of their industry sort of jargon. It’s great. It’s way better than how we ended up. You know, on our side of the fence, we’ve got webmasters, we’re not even, like, Come on, give me a break, you know, stuff like that.
Cuyler 7:24
I would imagine it’s important on a cell, one of the things he says is that, you know, no one’s gonna hire you to build a building until you’ve built a building.
Don Mock 7:33
Yeah.
Cuyler 7:34
It can be very hard to like, start out.
Don Mock 7:35
How do you get going?
Cuyler 7:36
Especially trying to start I think he started his own like, firm. He was pretty young. Yeah. But now there’s he, I think they were contracted to do the one of the New World Trade Center buildings.
Don Mock 7:47
Okay, interesting.
Cuyler 7:48
They did via 57. West, which is like this kind of glass pyramid looking thing in Manhattan. It’s apartments, pretty pricey.
Don Mock 7:56
Yeah, but it’s design, sort of the ubiquity of design being that it’s everywhere. It’s not just graphic design. It’s fashion. Its architecture, it’s all sorts of different things.
Cuyler 8:05
There was an episode on Tinker Hatfield, okay. The shoe designer who was famous for designing the first, Nike, the big Nikes. You know, the Jordans? He designed almost all the Jordans, he I think he designed the Air Force?
Don Mock 8:18
Oh, really?
Cuyler 8:19
The ones that are like, really the iconic Nike shoes are his designs.
Don Mock 8:23
That’s cool.
Cuyler 8:24
Which was an interesting episode, because, you know, you would never realize how much thought goes into a shoe design. Especially ones that look very similar from year to year, that kind of thing.
Don Mock 8:35
Shoe design is I mean, that’s a whole nother topic in and of itself, of course, but yeah, absolutely fascinating in terms of patterning and how it works. And then also, you know, I mean, what’s the, you know, we design websites here, obviously, right? And we think about, you’re gonna see where I’m going with this in a minute. And you think about entry points for online, right? So it’s, oh, I’ve designed it, it needs to work in a three column grid on a laptop, it needs to write a two column grid on your iPad, and then it needs to work one column on your on your phone, right?
Cuyler 9:05
Which is increasingly the way we are viewing websites.
Don Mock 9:07
Yeah, and now, more and more the point of entry is really through your phone, obviously, right? So think about shoe designers in that, hey, it’s got to work for a size seven, you know, but it also has to work in a size 14.
Cuyler 9:08
Right.
Don Mock 9:08
And how do you pattern that out? How do you keep your same proportions simliar, you know, things like that. It’s kind of interesting, really interesting to think about.
Cuyler 9:29
It’s an interesting world of design that I knew very little about. Yeah, I think there was an episode on car design, which was cool, but it was one.
Don Mock 9:39
Don’t ruin it for everybody.
Cuyler 9:40
Okay, it was the guy who designed the Chrysler was it the 200
Don Mock 9:44
The 300 series?
Cuyler 9:45
Yeah. It was a cool episode. That’s not my favorite car in the world. So yeah.
Don Mock 9:51
I think the launch for that was kind of interesting. That was that might have been the mystery car, I think it was the launch.
Cuyler 9:56
It definitely helped Chrysler out. It wasn’t just minivans that they were selling.
Don Mock 10:00
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Cuyler 10:01
I know there’s an episode about set design for theater. And what was interesting about that is that’s kind of crossing over more and more into graphic design. Because they’re using projection more heavily than they used to.
Don Mock 10:16
Yeah, that’s cool.
Cuyler 10:17
They’re able to switch things in very quickly. Obviously.
Don Mock 10:21
It’s not a painted backdrop anymore. Or some skill saw cut out, you know, wood in the shape of clouds.
Cuyler 10:27
And what is physical they are sometimes able to utilize for multiple things, given the projection that’s on it kind of thing, which so I found that to be pretty interesting.
Don Mock 10:35
Yeah, that’s cool.
Cuyler 10:37
It’s a good series in general. I think they only did one season.
Don Mock 10:40
I think so too. It’s only like six episodes?
Cuyler 10:42
Something like that.
Don Mock 10:43
Yeah. All right.
Cuyler 10:45
That was a good one.
Don Mock 10:46
All right. Well, are you gonna bring up the big one if we’re talking documentaries?
Cuyler 10:49
Helvetica?
Don Mock 10:48
Yeah, i mean, throw it down there. I knew either you or me was gonna bring it up. One of us was going to bring it up, so. Helvetica The Movie.
Cuyler 10:49
When your friend Massimo is using it pretty heavily.
Don Mock 11:03
Yeah. And for those that don’t know, Helvetica, obviously, the typeface, right. And we’ve talked about on a previous pod that it is not controversial, but it’s been around so long. And you and I talked about how Helvetica actually right? That the documentary, which I think is great, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but my take on it is, first half of the documentary is kind of Helvetica is the best typeface in the world.
Cuyler 11:22
It’s amazing. It’s the perfect typeface.
Don Mock 11:23
It’s the perfect typeface. And then the second half of the documentary is, fuck Helvetica. It’s the worst typeface in the world. Like, why are we still using it? It’s awful. It kind of goes through interviews of all these different designers and their viewpoints, right?
Cuyler 11:35
I feel like most designers who don’t like Helvetica their viewpoint, isn’t that it’s a bad typeface. It’s usually that it’s the…
Don Mock 11:43
The typeface of the man?
Cuyler 11:44
Yeah, it’s everywhere Yeah. It’s it’s too much.
Don Mock 11:47
It’s every bank in the world.
Cuyler 11:48
It’s just so many different things. And it’s, it’s it is kind of an uninspired project when your brand is target you get to circles and Helvetica.
Don Mock 12:03
Well, don’t tell don’t tell Michael Beirut that you know.
Cuyler 12:05
I love Michael Beirut. So like I was gonna say he worked at Fanelli and Associates. Which I’m sure, is where he developed his love of Helvetica. But it is almost every project, which is fine. He loves Helvetica. I Helvetica. But I can understand the kind of frustration in some designers that it’s almost too ubiquitous. Yes, it’s made the world feel a little more vanilla now. Which is the only problem
Don Mock 12:35
Well, again, maybe a topic for another pod, but there has been an interesting transformation in luxury brands over the past 10 years, right? We’re all of these funky weird brands Burberry. You know, I don’t want to say Tiffany, but like all these sort of, Saint Laurent I think? Like all these different brands have basically all transitioned from their funky weird signatures, and strange, awkward typography. To like a Helvetica ask sans serif, lowercase boring looking typeface.
Cuyler 13:05
It’s become pretty common to make the switch.
Don Mock 13:08
But Helvetica… Anyway, we kind of off topic. I mean, Helvetica the documentary. I mean, I love the movie. I think it’s great. I mean, do you do you dig it?
Cuyler 13:15
I liked that documentary a lot.
Don Mock 13:17
Super cool.
Cuyler 13:17
I agree with some people in it more than others. From an objective perspective, Helvetica is a fantastic typeface.
Don Mock 13:25
Totally agreed. 100%.
Cuyler 13:26
The cap height, or the x height is a little bit bigger. So that’s not quite as you know, differentiated from the cap, straight, super legible. All the different weights are perfectly flushed out. However, it is so ubiquitous. Like I said, in the previous one, there’s no day in your life that you go without seeing Helvetica.
Don Mock 13:46
Totally agreed. But I think, if the takeaway from this podcast somebody out there listening is, huh, I never thought about this in a million years. And you know, and I’m curious, you know, pop on Helvetica the movie. I think it actually for even non designers, it’s an actually really interesting watch to go, wow! Like, never in a million years would have thought about this. But here is this unbelievable passion, about something I didn’t even think about, you know what I mean? And watching sort of both sides not have an argument, but watching both vantage points of why it’s great and why it’s not. That’s what I think makes sense.
Cuyler 14:25
I have a bunch of friends who have watched it and are not designers. I feel like that documentary in particular was somewhat pervasive on Netflix, and people who were non designers enjoyed it, you know, just the same.
Don Mock 14:25
Cause I’m a super nerd. We own it.
Cuyler 14:42
You own it? Like on DVD?
Don Mock 14:43
Yeah, we have it on DVD. I know, we’re old, so.
Cuyler 14:47
There was another one that, that filmmaker made called Objectified.
Don Mock 14:50
Objectified! I literally just that wrote that down.
Cuyler 14:52
You just wrote that down?
Don Mock 14:52
I literally just wrote down Objectified. I had an Objectified t-shirt at one point.
Cuyler 14:56
It’s also in Helvetica I believe (laughter). That was a product design?
Don Mock 15:00
Yeah, yeah, the logo type for Objectified was actually made. It was silhouettes of all objects.
Cuyler 15:06
Oh, that’s right.
Don Mock 15:06
Right. So like a chair. It’s like a record all these different things, right? Same filmmaker did the same approach for Objectified. And it really was more product based and it’s easy to pick on chairs. But it’s like, hey, you don’t think about a chair, as a chair at all until it’s super uncomfortable, or it’s super comfortable, right? Or it’s not in the place it should be, right? Or, it’s mid century modern, where it’s supposed to be modern or whatever the case may be. So yeah, I don’t like that one as much, just personally.
Cuyler 15:37
I don’t either, but I’m biased in that regard.
Don Mock 15:41
Well, I think we both are speaking the same language.
Cuyler 15:42
I enjoyed it. I mean, I learned a lot. It was interesting to see, and I can’t remember but um, they must have spoken about Eames… the Eames chair.
Don Mock 15:52
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Cuyler 15:53
Which you can find in a
MoMA today. One of the originals, which is interesting
MoMA has a new design museum. Apart from the modern arts, right around the corner.
Don Mock 16:06
Have you been to the museum of design in London?
Cuyler 16:09
I did not go in London.
Don Mock 16:10
Okay. Okay.
Cuyler 16:11
I should have
Don Mock 16:12
Yeah, it’s pretty cool.
Cuyler 16:13
There’s so many museums in London.
Don Mock 16:15
But again, kind of like the topic of this pod. Like, I don’t want to say what is design, but design is kind of, you know, designs everywhere. Whether we’re talking about, Objectified and objects and like, why is this pen shaped this way? There’s a great book out there actually called, like, why things are the way they are. Which is like, why does a fork have four tines instead of three? You know, and all this, and now we’re starting to lean more into sort of industrial design.
Cuyler 16:42
Right. Right.
Don Mock 16:43
And why products are shaped the way they are. Or why, you know, a coffee carafe this in this design is better than the other design or whatever the case may be right. But, yeah, there’s another kind of interesting sort of pod show.
Cuyler 16:57
Even nature designs things.
Don Mock 16:59
Yeah.
Cuyler 17:00
On it by itself.
Mother Earth baby.
Through efficiency, right?
Don Mock 17:03
Yeah, totally.
Cuyler 17:05
Nature seem to think that mammals will be best suited with two eyes, one nose, and a mouth. You know?
Don Mock 17:10
Yeah, yeah, we are symmetrical
Cuyler 17:12
Or limbs.
Don Mock 17:13
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Cuyler 17:14
That seems to be pretty common.
Don Mock 17:16
Well, I think it’s the way the cells split. I don’t know. I just totally made that up.
Cuyler 17:20
I can’t remember where I read it. But I do think that early on that with mammals that became the kind of winning formula for almost all mammals.
Don Mock 17:31
For sure. Man we are going deep here.
Cuyler 17:33
But it’s still design in some sense, you know, DNA is design in a weird, abstract sense.
Don Mock 17:37
For sure. For sure.
Cuyler 17:39
Now we’re able to manipulate it.
Don Mock 17:42
Well, we can clone it at least right?
Cuyler 17:44
Like with CRISPR. You can do it in your garage. I watched the whole documentary on that.
Don Mock 17:49
Oh boy. Okay. Too many documentaries. Any othersort of thoughts on TV, or movies or anything for design? We’re making a list for people here?
Cuyler 17:58
The only one I would throw out is a documentary called The Happy film, which we’ve talked on this podcast about Stefan Sagmeister. It’s a fun project, because it starts with one of his sabbaticals. And goes through the show for one of these big design projects, which is an installation project. That was in multiple rooms. And there were multiple ways that the audience could interact with the design. And it was basically just about happiness, and what makes people happy and how different people find happiness. And it’s kind of interesting. It starts as an interesting kind of exploration about himself. That becomes a much bigger project.
Don Mock 18:36
Well, he is an interesting character.
Cuyler 18:37
Very interesting.
Don Mock 18:38
Yeah. Mad respect for that guy.
Cuyler 18:40
And speaking of prop design, he’s really doing most mostly clothing.
Don Mock 18:45
Yeah, he’s transitioned into heavy clothing, but with an infographic approach to it.
Cuyler 18:52
Very graphic approach to the clothing.
Don Mock 18:55
And then he’s also been, I guess, we’ll call it upcycling all these old like oil paintings and portraits, and then turning those into kind of modern day infographics. Dude, it’s like charts of the population of the world. He did a… What’s the jacket he did? That’s got like knives in it?
Cuyler 19:14
All the knives?
Don Mock 19:14
Yeah.
Cuyler 19:15
That’s one of the big ones on his website. Which by the way, he has a great web design for his clothing. His new his new website is really impressive.
Don Mock 19:23
Cool stuff. All right. So as we wrap it up, we’ve got Mad Men on the commercial side. We’ve got Helvetica and Objectified as documentaries.
Cuyler 19:31
Yeah. Art of Design.
Don Mock 19:32
We’ve got a cool Art of Design on Netflix.
Cuyler 19:34
Happy Film I do not know where you can watch that. You probably gonna have to…
Don Mock 19:38
Don’t say it.
Cuyler 19:39
Your probably gonna have to… rent it.
Don Mock 19:41
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, throw them a few bucks, you know. Alright. I think that’s everybody’s homework to get out there and let us know which one of their favorite options people are responding to. Alright, good. Sounds good chat, man.
Cuyler 19:54
Yeah, I could talk about shows forever.
Don Mock 19:56
All right. Well, hey, well, wait till we start our second podcast which is the daily recap on Love Island (laughter).
Cuyler 20:03
Oh man! I’m not caught up.
Don Mock 20:06
Oh boy.
Cuyler 20:07
I need to catch up.
Don Mock 20:08
All right, everybody can find us online at MOCKtheAgency.com or on the socials @mocktheagency. Drop us a review and we’ll chat with you next time. Thanks everybody.
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