Episode Transcript
Don Mock 0:20
Alright, Episode 34. We’re back. We’ve got a special guest here. We’ve got one of our designers, Mike, is sitting in here joining me on today’s podcast. Say hello, Mike.
Mike 0:28
Hello, Mike.
Don Mock 0:29
Nice. Multiple people do that. I love that, how that’s kind of like a running theme. So, we were shooting the bull in the office the other day and somehow stumbled onto this hilarious topic that I believe Mike either wrote a paper or did something.
Mike 0:45
I did a presentation.
Don Mock 0:46
A presentation.
Mike 0:47
There was like, one of my friends had a birthday party and their idea was to have presentation nights, like a PowerPoint night, I guess.
Don Mock 0:55
What?
Mike 0:55
It’s a thing that people do.
Don Mock 0:56
That’s riveting birthday party. What in the world? Is that what young people do now?
Mike 1:00
A PowerPoint whether it be funny or weird.
Don Mock 1:04
Okay. Well, I will say the power of the presentation definitely can sway opinions and sway minds, right?
Mike 1:11
Definitely.
Don Mock 1:12
So, obviously, we do presentations for clients all the time.
Mike 1:14
Yeah.
Don Mock 1:14
And navigate them through. I will share a funny anecdote that years ago, my oldest child wanted to go to Bonnaroo, and put together literally a compelling presentation. Like streamed it from her phone up to the TV. It was like, hey mom and dad, here’s all the reasons why I wanted it, and went through the entire thing. And it was like, okay, sold. You’re going to Bonnaroo, done. Mom and dad will pay for that. It was pretty funny. So the power of the presentation. I wasn’t expecting it to be part of a birthday, which is interesting.
Mike 1:45
Yeah.
Don Mock 1:46
But I’ll take it. And the topic for today. And what you’re going to run us through here. The title of the presentation is what Mr. Mike?
Mike 1:54
Comic Sans isn’t as bad as you think it is and this is why.
Don Mock 1:58
I know, Comic Sans.
Mike 1:59
Comic Sans.
Don Mock 2:00
We’ve all got thoughts. I think Cuyler and I talked about Comic Sans on a previous podcast, we’re talking about typefaces. Inevitably, it always pops up right.
Mike 2:09
Yeah.
Don Mock 2:09
I think I think it was Avatar with Papyrus.
Mike 2:09
Yeah.
Don Mock 2:09
Comic Sans popped up. I think it was the Dan Gilbert letter when LeBron left the Cavs and he types up the scathing letter in the Cleveland newspaper or whatever, but it was all typeset in Comic Sans.
Mike 2:22
Yeah.
Don Mock 2:23
Right. Which was like, oh, my gosh, that makes it seem not so serious.
Mike 2:26
Yeah.
Don Mock 2:27
If this serious letter is is typeset in this, and I guess before we go into your thesis and your presentation, or the highlights dare, I say, right. How would you describe Comic Sans? Or is that part of the presentation?
Mike 2:41
Not really part of it? I guess it’s just like a childlike.
Don Mock 2:45
Interesting,
Mike 2:46
Goofy.
Don Mock 2:47
Handwritten.
Mike 2:48
Handwritten.
Don Mock 2:48
Yeah, it’s a handwritten-esque font, right?
Mike 2:50
Yeah.
Don Mock 2:51
Instead of actually handwriting things out, you can just type out this. And it is a default font, right? I mean, a lot of people sort of.
Mike 2:57
Yeah.
Don Mock 2:58
It comes loaded on a lot of people’s computers.
Mike 3:00
Yeah, Microsoft computers.
Don Mock 3:01
That’s why it kind of became as prevalent, I think, as it has is because it’s kind of a default when it comes with the computers. Alright, so I’m gonna turn it over to you and then I’m gonna jump in with color commentary, because I want to be able to hone myself on Comic Sans, the misunderstood font. What’s about to happen? I’m excited for this.
Mike 3:18
Alright, well, I’ll just go into the origins of it.
Don Mock 3:21
Okay.
Mike 3:22
Designed by a guy named Vincent Connare.
Don Mock 3:24
Okay.
Mike 3:25
He was a font engineer at Microsoft.
Don Mock 3:27
Alright, interesting.
Mike 3:28
He also designed Trebuchet.
Don Mock 3:30
Trebuchet? Okay.
Mike 3:31
It says on his site that he did Wingdings, but I don’t think that’s true.
Don Mock 3:36
Really?
Mike 3:37
I’m not sure.
Don Mock 3:37
Okay.
Mike 3:37
It says that on the site.
Don Mock 3:38
So maybe potentially claiming that he did and Wingdings is a typeface of a bunch of different pieces of clipart.
Mike 3:43
Yeah.
Don Mock 3:44
It’s like the hands, the arrows, just little symbols, little glyphs, dare I say. Right, okay.
Mike 3:53
The way that it came about, actually, is that he was asked directly by Melinda Gates to create this font for, there was a dog in this program called Microsoft Bob.
Don Mock 4:04
Okay.
Mike 4:04
And it was like, basically a way for users to navigate windows like an easier way and it was basically laid out like a house.
Don Mock 4:15
Okay.
Mike 4:16
And there was a dog that would talk to you. A little bubble.
Don Mock 4:19
So, they replaced the paperclip? Remember how you used to have a little paperclip?
Mike 4:22
I think that came afterwards?
Don Mock 4:23
Oh okay, so pre-paperclip potential?
Mike 4:25
Yeah, I think pre-paperclip.
Don Mock 4:26
Our copious show notes that we did before this.
Mike 4:29
Yeah.
Don Mock 4:30
So, okay, but it was a Microsoft-quasi tutorial of sort of navigating you through Microsoft. Is that what I come to understand?
Mike 4:39
I don’t know it was a tutorial. I think it just a UI basically, like a weird UI.
Don Mock 4:45
Interesting.
Mike 4:46
Get people caught up and go through Microsoft.
Don Mock 4:49
Okay. So, she makes a request to this gentleman to design a typeface for the dog?
Mike 4:54
For the dog to speak in the type bubbles, because I think they were using Times New Roman or something.
Don Mock 5:02
Okay.
Mike 5:02
But it didn’t feel like.
Don Mock 5:04
Yeah, but we wanted it more Comic-y. You know what I mean? Like if the dog is speaking in the in the speech bubble comes out. We want a typeface that reflects that.
Mike 5:11
Yeah, yeah.
Don Mock 5:11
Alright.
Mike 5:14
So, it never made it there to Microsoft Bob. I don’t know why.
Don Mock 5:18
Okay.
Mike 5:18
But it was released subsequently on Microsoft 95.
Don Mock 5:24
Okay.
Mike 5:24
And has been in our hearts and minds ever since.
Don Mock 5:28
Yeah, yeah. In our love and hate relationship ever since?
Mike 5:32
Yeah, yeah.
Don Mock 5:32
Okay. Alright.
Mike 5:34
It was originally not designed as a typeface that you’d use.
Don Mock 5:38
Okay.
Mike 5:39
Like in a word or anything like that.
Don Mock 5:41
Makes sense.
Mike 5:41
It was made specifically for these applications for like children, basically.
Don Mock 5:45
Okay, interesting.
Mike 5:47
One interesting part is that he created the typeface based on comics that he had in his office and specifically, the one that he he comments on is the Dark Knight Returns.
Don Mock 5:59
Really?
Mike 6:00
Yeah.
Don Mock 6:00
I would absolutely not associate the Dark Knight Returns with Comic Sans. This is blowing my mind. I mean, obviously, Mike is looking at my face right now my eyes are as big as saucers. Because the Dark Knight Returns, I would say is a quasi seminal moment in the history of Batman.
Mike 6:18
Yeah.
Don Mock 6:19
Frank Miller, obviously the creation, phenomenal seminal piece of work. I would say that is probably one of the most influential aspects of Batman in the history of Batman. It was really the transition from, for those, I’m going on a tangent here. We didn’t realize we’re gonna talk about Batman, when we’re talking about Comic Sans. But, we have the original Batman then we go to Adam West, we get kind of the campy.
Mike 6:41
Yeah.
Don Mock 6:41
Blam sock, pow, Batman, and all this sort of wacky, zany aspects, right? Frank Miller, and this book that Mike’s referencing really transitions, it flips the script basically on is Bruce Wayne wearing the Batman mask? Or is he truly Batman, who wears Bruce Wayne as the mask, right?
Mike 7:04
Yeah.
Don Mock 7:04
You know, it’s a late 80’s really interesting, gritty sort of take. It totally changed everything. Every Batman since the Dark Knight Returns has totally been forever changed. So, the fact that we’ve got Comic Sans, and The Dark Knight Returns in the same sentence is absolutely blowing my mind.
Mike 7:20
Yeah.
Don Mock 7:20
Okay.
Mike 7:21
Such a gritty thing, you wouldn’t think Comic Sans.
Don Mock 7:24
I don’t know off the top of my head who lettered that, but I would venture to guess back in the day, because it was pre-computer prevalence in comic development, right? Everything was letters by hand. So, it’s fascinating that he would take that approach.
Mike 7:38
Yeah.
Don Mock 7:39
I know, Klaus Janson inked everything, but I can’t remember, I can’t recall off the top my head who lettered it. So, we will put it in the show notes. Alright, anyway, keep going, Mike, this is fascinating.
Mike 7:47
So basically, I think the reason why it’s become so hated now is because of its inappropriate use, obviously.
Don Mock 7:57
Yeah.
Mike 7:59
Its ease of access with so many people, as we said, because it was it’s basically on every computer there is.
Don Mock 8:06
Yeah, absolutely.
Mike 8:08
It’s a Microsoft default font. If you have a Mac, and you have word, it’s there as well.
Don Mock 8:14
Yeah, exactly.
Mike 8:16
So, because of that widespread ease of use, it’s just kind of people have just kind of overused it.
Don Mock 8:22
Yeah, for sure.
Mike 8:23
Used it in many different ways. One, like you were saying earlier, some example, one of the examples that I found was, they used it in a slideshow for CERN.
Don Mock 8:36
Okay.
Mike 8:37
About the Higgs boson.
Don Mock 8:38
Oh, my God.
Mike 8:39
So, it’s like.
Don Mock 8:41
Like, arguably the most scientific place on the planet?
Mike 8:46
Yeah.
Don Mock 8:47
Right. I don’t know if we’re smashing atoms and what’s happening there. I know enough to be dangerous in regards to what CERN is, right. But, I would not associate a presentation of that scientific level with Comic Sans. That is totally, totally inappropriate.
Mike 9:02
Yeah. And I think that’s definitely like emblematic of it’s use over many years.
Don Mock 9:08
Yeah.
Mike 9:09
But it’s appropriate use is seemingly more in line with children or teaching.
Don Mock 9:17
Okay.
Mike 9:19
A Twitter poll from this magazine called TES. Times Educational Supplement.
Don Mock 9:25
Okay.
Mike 9:26
In 2017, they had 7,000 participants. They said that 44% of teachers use Comic Sans in their teaching.
Don Mock 9:34
Makes total sense.
Mike 9:35
So, I don’t know what kind of teachers those are. I’m assuming, like kindergarteners and first graders.
Don Mock 9:41
Oh, man, you might be surprised. So, speaking from experience, I have three children that are in various states of education. One of them has gone all the way through K-12, and is off in college now. So, the amount of literature I’ve gotten over the past 14, 15 years from schools, right.
Mike 10:01
Mhm.
Don Mock 10:01
Here’s the Friday flyer. Here’s this, here’s a field trip. Yeah, dude, it’s Comic Sans. Every other thing is Comic Sans. I would say yes, it’s from kindergarten, or maybe even preschool. All the way through, there are the occasional high school teachers.
Mike 10:18
Yeah.
Don Mock 10:18
That are rocking Comic Sans, which is again, not necessarily my favorite or appropriate. Alright, interesting. Wow, Mike, I love that you’ve done this much research. This is great.
Mike 10:29
Yeah. Comic Sans is widely used in schools. Often due to its high legibility, very easy to read. When I originally made this, I just put like, it’s really good for dyslexic students is what they said.
Don Mock 10:48
Really?
Mike 10:49
Yeah, it’s often used for like people who use or teachers who are trying to teach dyslexic students.
Don Mock 10:55
Interesting.
Mike 10:56
There’s another font that I read while I was looking it up again, that’s called like Dyslexie, specifically made for dyslexic students. However, what I read is basically that it’s not necessarily the font shape, like all the letters shapes and stuff. It’s more due to like spacing of the letters.
Don Mock 11:19
Okay. Well, it does have horrendous kerning.
Mike 11:22
Yeah. Yeah.
Don Mock 11:24
As most as most default fonts do, you know?
Mike 11:27
Yeah.
Don Mock 11:27
I’ve mentioned this in the past, most of us grew up with, like Century School Book, or Times New Roman for a lot of our educational components. And as you learn to read, initially, you read individual letters. That’s how we’re all taught, right? A, N, D, T, H, E, whatever the case may be. But as you get older, and as you start to read faster, and as you grow up and whatnot, we actually stop. As human beings, we kind of stopped reading individual letters, and we read the shapes of the words.
Mike 12:00
Yeah.
Don Mock 12:01
And we’ve mentioned on a previous podcast, how all caps is actually harder to read. Because the shapes of the individual words are destroyed, it’s just literally it’s just rectangle, everything has the same cap height has the same x-height, and so you actually do slow down, even if it’s infinitesimal, right? Slow down in your brain as you’re reading each individual letter to go through whatever the headline or subhead or whatever might be. But if you think about reading a book, or even on your iPad, or a traditional paperback, and the word and has a shape to it. So, it’s interesting that one of the side effects here, I mean side effects purposely, is that there is an inherent interesting legibility aspect to Comic Sans. I wouldn’t have expected that either.
Mike 12:44
Yeah.
Don Mock 12:45
Alright. Keep going brother. This is interesting. I love this.
Mike 12:49
Another good reason for the font is it’s very good for modeling handwriting for kids. Okay. It’s it’s very handwritten.
Don Mock 12:57
Well, it does have the, I don’t even know what you would call it like the cross bars overlap the letter forms and things like that, right?
Mike 13:05
Yeah.
Don Mock 13:05
It is kind of, it’s goofy in that it’s not mechanically sound. There is overlap of letter form creation. Okay, I’ll give you that one. I’ll give you that one.
Mike 13:16
And I think, obviously, it’s aesthetically pleasing to children. So, I think that’s another appropriate.
Don Mock 13:25
Sure.
Mike 13:25
So in a sense, I think it’s just appropriate in its very limited amount of space.
Don Mock 13:31
Sure.
Mike 13:31
You’re not going to find me going out making a logo with Comic Sans.
Don Mock 13:35
Yeah, no one should I ever do that.
Mike 13:37
But it has its very limited use and I think just because people use it in this wide format, that it’s just..
Don Mock 13:48
That’s why it’s so misunderstood.
Mike 13:49
That’s why people just hate it so much.
Don Mock 13:52
Yeah. I don’t want to say design snobs. But, traditionally trained graphic designers, or anyone on our side of the fence design, advertising, probably is going to steer clear of any default font, right? We’re not going to use Georgia. We’re not, you know, that kind of stuff. Chicago. I don’t even know if that’s still even loaded anymore. Trajan has run its course. That type of thing. So in closing, do you have any closing thoughts on this or?
Mike 14:23
A few things. So, I think this quote from Vincent Connare himself, encapsulates kind of what I’m talking about.
Don Mock 14:33
I’m dying to hear this.
Mike 14:34
He says; “Type should do exactly what it’s intended to do. That’s why I’m proud of Comic Sans. It was for novice computer users, and it succeeded with that market. People use it inappropriately. If they don’t understand how type works, it won’t have any power or meaning to them.”
Don Mock 14:50
Interesting.
Mike 14:50
So, that’s kind of, I think, appropriate for the whole thing.
Don Mock 14:55
Yeah. I mean, if you designed Comic Sans would you be proud of it?
Mike 14:58
Probably not.
Don Mock 14:59
Really?
Mike 15:00
Myself, I don’t know. Well, I guess maybe in the sense that it’s the font that people use.
Don Mock 15:07
Yeah.
Mike 15:08
That people know.
Don Mock 15:08
Yeah.
Mike 15:09
Probably the most widely known font.
Don Mock 15:11
I am kind of of the opinion, I think maybe this is because I am kind of a historian of advertising and just love the concept of visual communication and the power of persuasion. I’m of the opinion that a room divided is better than a room ignored, right?
Mike 15:26
Yeah.
Don Mock 15:26
So, I’d rather have half of everybody love me and celebrate me and then have the other half not necessarily have that same opinion. So, while I’ll never use Comic Sans, you know, if I designed it, I’d absolutely throw it on the resume and say, proud designer of Comic Sans. It’s unfortunate that it was used on the signage for that bagel shop, or down the street or whatnot. I mean, used in all these inappropriate places.
Mike 15:52
Yeah.
Don Mock 15:52
But we’ve joked on a previous podcast about sometimes you create these things, you send them out in the world, and then it’s not your baby anymore.
Mike 16:01
Yeah.
Don Mock 16:02
You know what I mean? It’s just all oh no, why did you do that? You kind of lose control to a certain extent of things you create. So that’s clearly what happened with this gentleman, right?
Mike 16:11
Yeah, for sure.
Don Mock 16:13
Alright.
Mike 16:13
And then one last little fun fact about Comic Sans. He claims, Vincent Connare, he says that he’s only ever used the font once.
Don Mock 16:23
Really?
Mike 16:24
It’s similar to the story that you told earlier about the the basketball coach.
Don Mock 16:31
Dan Gilbert. Yeah, the owner of the Cavaliers.
Mike 16:34
He says, I’ve only ever used Comic Sans once. I was having trouble changing my broadband to sky. So, I wrote them a letter in Comic Sans saying how disappointed I was. I got a 10 Euro refund. In those cases, I would recommend it. The basic theory is that typography should not shout, but Comic Sans shouts.
Don Mock 16:58
That’s funny. So, use it almost as appeal to lowest common denominator to complain about something.
Mike 17:04
Yeah.
Don Mock 17:04
I love that. I love that. That’s so crazy. So, the question everybody’s dying to know. And Mike, this has been super awesome. Is you do the presentation at the birthday party or presentations. What did everybody say? What did everybody think?
Mike 17:04
They liked it. Yeah, they were they were like, oh yeah, I get it now.
Don Mock 17:22
Yeah.
Mike 17:22
I definitely understand.
Don Mock 17:23
Yeah, well, I think now that we’ve had the benefit of running through why it existed, or excuse me why it was created. Right?
Mike 17:32
Yeah.
Don Mock 17:32
And the and the purposeful design choices behind that. It does give a little bit more credence to potentially Comic Sans, a misunderstood font, you know?
Mike 17:40
Yeah.
Don Mock 17:40
So, I still have trouble. I’m gonna have to go dig up my Dark Knight Returns and find out you know, because 99% sure that was all hand lettered and see sort of how the inspiration for that turned into this God awful typeface that’s gone all over the world.
Mike 17:55
Yeah.
Don Mock 17:56
I mean, think about how many Microsoft since ’95 I mean, think about Microsoft platforms and computers and whatever since 1995, made it out in the world.
Mike 18:06
Yeah.
Don Mock 18:07
Dear lord.
Mike 18:08
Yeah.
Don Mock 18:08
That’s a lot of Comic Sans my friend.
Mike 18:10
Lots of Comic Sans.
Don Mock 18:11
That’s crazy. Alright, cool. Well, hey, Mike. Thanks for jumping on. Super appreciate it. Super fun. Yeah, of course, man. Anytime, you’re welcome back anytime.
Mike 18:18
Yeah.
Don Mock 18:20
Alright, everybody can find us at mocktheagency.com. You can find us on the socials @mocktheagency and drop us a line and we will chat with you again soon. Thanks everybody.
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