Don Mock 0:19
All right. Episode 129, we’re back, and we have Cuyler back instead of Rob.
Cuyler 0:24
Yep.
Don Mock 0:24
Yeah. Welcome back, bud.
Cuyler 0:26
Thank you. It’s good to hear my voice like this, deeper than it usually is.
Don Mock 0:31
These microphones are so great though, that it sounds like, oh man, you know it’s, it’s makes you sound better than you than you are, I guess. And when do you ever hear yourself in these giant headphones too that are kind of covering your ears?
Cuyler 0:45
Luckily, never, because hearing your voice, you sound different than you think you sound.
Don Mock 0:50
I know, but going through a mixing board, you sound sound better.
Cuyler 0:53
You sound better
Don Mock 0:54
Versus one like, oh, I listened to a voicemail, or I saw myself on video or something. You know what I mean? Like you sound that’s bad audio. This is good audio.
Cuyler 1:01
That’s true.
Don Mock 1:03
So speaking of good audio, we have no plan for what we’re about to talk about today. So here’s what I’m gonna do on on the spot episode 129, and we got two designers on the phone, on the podcast, on the podcast. Off to a bad start already. Let’s do this. Let’s put you on the hot seat. And how about this? I’ll ask you a question, and then you ask me a question, or what, you know what I mean. Or we Okay, ping, Pang, back and forth. And hopefully not have too much dead air, right? But I would say you’ve been with us a hot minute. Now. It’s been a while, which has been great. I would say, what have you learned since working here? You know, is there anything that comes to mind? And, you know, we could always do the easy, breezy, hey, what’s your what’s your what’s been your favorite project to work on, or things like that. But I think something that maybe is unexpected is, Hey, what did you learn? Or what did you maybe not, you know, and that can be relative to, Oh, I thought it was going to be this, but it was really this. And, you know, like, like, it doesn’t have to be like, a literal answer, if that makes sense,
Cuyler 1:59
the number one thing I’ve learned, and I think that this was something that you talked to me about early, when I first started working.
Don Mock 2:06
Oh, wow. Okay, call back
Cuyler 2:08
is you said you mentioned once, like, you know, creativity isn’t a light switch, but it kind of becomes like that when you get better at doing design, yeah. I think the number one thing I learned is that I you just kind of end up with this kind of playbook, okay, like a sports analogy, but a playbook,
Don Mock 2:29
we love sports.
Cuyler 2:30
This is the project that I have. This is the, you know, the play I’m gonna call kind of thing, okay? and you try several different things, but there’s kind of an immediate reaction when I get a project as to, like, Okay, I think that X, Y, Z would work. And you just go ahead and start working on that stuff, sure. And then along that way, funny thing happens, yeah, you know, to find something else, but it’s if you just sit there and your thumbs to wait for, like, a big idea to hit you. You’re not going to make a whole lot of good design. You’re not going to make a whole lot of good art. A whole lot of good art or anything. You know, part of it is just getting in and doing but I’ve just learned that through repetition and through seeing a lot of different kinds of projects you just kind of end up with a a way to navigate a project where you’re able to hit the ground running pretty quickly and that expedites everything basically,
Don Mock 3:22
well, we’re big on efficiency. We’re not big on sitting around and doing a lot of it’s kind of our jam is, hey, we get in, you know, and we’re a kick ass SWAT team that rocks it right pretty quickly, you know. And that’s our unique selling proposition, right? Is efficiency and how do clients want to define that Because we can do a stellar creative project extremely quick, if need be, because of the way that we operate, right? So let me expand on that for just a minute. Do you think? Do you feel like it’s, it’s, you start in a comfortable place? Is that kind of what you’re like, you’ve got your playbook, is what you what you said, you know? So it’s, it’s like, okay, hey, I’ve just been given this assignment. It’s packaging, or it’s whatever I know I can start with. You know, concept number one is going to be, boom. You know what I mean? Like, sort of, sort of familiar territory, right?
Cuyler 4:07
Yeah, I think it’s that. I also think it’s just a matter of, once you’ve seen enough projects, there’s enough of, like, what you can draw on. And think the last time we did a project like this, this seemed to work really well. Or we tried this with a client. We loved it. They didn’t go for it. let’s try something like that. I think that for young designers who are in school, I think it’s a good thing that a lot of programs are teaching work of a conceptual kind of practice oriented approach to design, every decision is justified. all of that, you know, which is great on paper, but
Don Mock 4:47
in a utopian academic existence.
Cuyler 4:49
But you know what you don’t learn in school, necessarily Maybe some of the teachers or professors that are a little bit more realistic is that a client could very well just drive the whole thing off in a different direction, where all your justifications or reason for doing things we did a project like this recently ends up getting thrown out the window anyway. This was from.. we picked up a design from a previous agency that had all these, you know, justifications for where the inspiration but in all of that stuff is can be really cool if you have total, complete control over a project, which you almost never do
Cuyler 5:29
so
Don Mock 5:30
because clients get in the way, you know? And then not only clients, but then their clients, I mean whoever they’re selling their goods and wares or services to,
Cuyler 5:40
and in this case, it was also a what the project that this other agency had initially started has now grown, and therefore you end up with these problems in an otherwise pretty well thought out system, And then the whole system becomes this tangled mess, and you got to figure out how to, how to make it more linear and make more sense, But I think that in going back to the previous point, I think that once you’ve seen another sports analogy, it’s kind of like, how do you call an offense against a defense that you’ve never you know gone up against? Yeah, I feel like the more you see types of projects, types of clients, and also, it also is when you’re working on accounts that you’ve worked on for a long time you become more familiar with what the look is,
Don Mock 6:29
of course which theoretically will make a better relationship between client and design firm or agency like us, right? Because, you know, upstream, what they’re up against, things like that. I mean, we’ve worked with one of our clients for such a long time, and I’ll just get an email that’s like, I need to sell sheet for this.
Cuyler 6:47
Yeah
Don Mock 6:49
It’s like, there’s no brief, there’s no this, you know? And it’s like, hey, yeah, write copy for this new product. And it’s like, you know? I mean, the familiarity is what makes us efficient and great in that scenario, right? Because it’s like, okay, I don’t need you to write like, a two page brief and give me all you know, right? Let’s just we already know where just pick up and go, right, you know? And then it’s okay, hey, here’s the first pass edit away. But I’ve taken away 90% of your work and your thinking that you have to do on your side of the phrase, right? Because I already know the system and the universe
Cuyler 7:19
and trust and all that. So with new clients, it’s, there’s a combination of a there’s a lack of trust, because there’s a lack of that relationship, But also, you don’t necessarily know what they’re looking for, what they have in mind. And then a lot of clients can have a hard time articulating what they have in mind, you know,
Don Mock 7:36
yeah, we’ve talked about in the past, they don’t speak our vernacular, so they say weird analogies. Yeah, yeah. make the logo pop. You know, it’s like, Well, hey, all the direction you’re giving me is what’s going to do the opposite exactly what you’re asking for. But they don’t. That’s our job to extrapolate what’s the best creative solve. You know, hey, you asked for this. Here it is. But here’s a better solution to that scenario, you know, that type of thing. yeah. Well, I think that that’s an interesting answer that you gave in terms of, sort of, it’s a little bit long and winding in terms of repetition makes it but starting with the fact that it’s not a light switch, but again, we’re not fine artists, you know. I mean, it is, I mean, I don’t want to downplay, you know, it’s commercial art, right? I mean, it’s, yeah, hey, I have a business need to solve this problem. You know, I need you guys to help me solve the problem.
Don Mock 8:30
Well,
Cuyler 8:30
Well, there was a previous podcast, and for those of you who are listening, I edit them, so I listen to all of them, but there was one where you and Rob were talking about art versus design, and I have a different take on art versus design
Don Mock 8:45
really quickly. For those that haven’t listened, what was the synopsis since I don’t even remember
Cuyler 8:49
I think the synopsis was, Rob was definitely more in the camp of like, yes, absolutely, design is art, and you were like, it is it’s commercial art, my take on it is design is not art, and art is not design,
Don Mock 9:07
okay. I’m okay with that
Cuyler 9:08
no, there’s, like, a broader view of, like, oh, all things are art, you know, like a samurai sword is art,
Don Mock 9:15
But how are you defining art? I guess then, is the question, are you defining it as fine art?
Cuyler 9:21
Yes, I’m talking about fine art, like otherwise,
Don Mock 9:24
because, I mean architecture, architecture is art, right?
Cuyler 9:26
Everything’s art. On one hand, we’re talking about, like, what is art In terms of a like, what is fine art? in my opinion, art can’t serve a function that, or an application that is commercial or military or something like that.
Don Mock 9:26
Okay, so, it’s art for art’s sake,
Cuyler 9:49
it’s art for art sake
Don Mock 9:50
it’s just for human expression, and that’s what separates us from the animals, Because, I mean, they can’t make music, they can’t make, you know, paintings, you know. that kind of stuff, right? It’s just the human emotion and the human expression.
Cuyler 10:04
Yes, furthermore, I would say, because I had a professor at Georgia, he actually wasn’t a professor. He just came in to critique our senior, And he said, and he was right about this, that he was, like, a lot of week presented and all of that. And he said, a lot of you guys. Or he said, the function of design is to take the complex and make it simple he was just basically saying, you’re taking what’s difficult to understand and trying to make it easier to understand
Don Mock 10:35
understood.
Cuyler 10:35
And he was saying, you know, a bunch of you guys have taken something, a simple concept and made it complex, which is the opposite of function of design? and in my opinion, that’s more of the function of what art is. Where I think taking a what an overlooked or simple thing, and making it and kind of asking a question about it versus design, should be answering questions. Art should be doing the opposite. I feel like, if that makes sense
Don Mock 11:06
It does. I think another way of saying it is that design needs to have a solution, to your point, answer a question. art doesn’t need to do either.
Cuyler 11:19
Right Doesn’t need to do either. But if anything, it would be the question, not an answer for it.
Don Mock 11:25
I think that’s interesting. I’m down with that.
Cuyler 11:28
there goes Daisy,
Don Mock 11:29
yeah, well, she’s barking at somebody. Yeah, it happens. dogs in the office man
Cuyler 11:34
yeah, we have two dogs, one of them is louder than the other,
Don Mock 11:38
yeah, well, one’s a leader and one’s a follower. It only takes one to get them barking. all right, well, that’s interesting, any questions for
Don Mock 11:48
I mean, I
Cuyler 11:48
I was trying to think of,
Don Mock 11:51
trying to think
Don Mock 11:52
I forgot my water, so I’m a little
Cuyler 11:54
Yeah? oh, I brought a Diet Coke, and I’m afraid to open it, because,
Don Mock 11:59
no, that’s fine.
Cuyler 11:59
Well, I can edit it out.
Don Mock 12:00
I was about to say, I know who’s editing this. Yeah.
Cuyler 12:03
I guess my question for you would be, what’s the biggest difficulty when hiring a new designer? because I know there’s, there is quite a it does take some time to get into a kind of symbiotic
Don Mock 12:19
Yeah, I will get to the answer. But before I get to that answer, I will say that. I’m not going to say it’s, it’s the obvious things about talent and this and that and whatnot, right? I think what I’ve learned over the because it’s kind of, if the topic of today’s podcast is what I’ve learned, I’ve learned is, is that talent, you know, like immediate talent, or what your portfolio looks like, can only be so good, right? To begin with, you got to fit in, the chemistry is important, right? And vibe and attitude, you know, we can teach you how to do certain things, you know. We can teach you clients. We can teach you rules. We can teach you, you know, I mean time permitting, of course, you know, and you know, but I can’t teach you to be an eager beaver that wants to learn you know, you either kind of are or not, right, right? So I’m gonna, I’m gonna flush all of those, those kind of obvious answers out the out the beginning, and I’d say the biggest challenge is understanding a certain capability to juggle multiple projects and the speed with which they can create, right?
Don Mock 13:30
There’s no way to know that until, you kind of throw them in the fire, right? So, so, you know, I can go, oh, this person would fit the vibe, you know. Oh, this person has a great portfolio. Oh, this person’s really a great designer. Oh, this person’s a good art director. Oh, this person has great typography. This person, you know, like, this person’s very versatile. There’s, you know, there’s a lot you can judge very quickly for criteria within the shop and that, you know. And just because somebody doesn’t get hired here doesn’t mean that they’re not a fully capable, amazing designer, you know, just like when account directors or clients or brand managers don’t get certain jobs, it has, it’s not necessarily always a reflection of them or their skill set. It’s, it’s partly the fit, right, right? But the hardest thing is, you know, we are veryvaried, very varied? very varied by design. Wow, that sounded weird, but like we’re jumping all over the place. We’re on websites, we’re on packaging, we’re on identity, we’re on in store point of sale, we’re on digital ad campaigns. You know, we do a lot of different type of tactical things, right? So mirror that with, Hey, dude, I need my stuff, That’s really impossible to judge until someone’s here.
Cuyler 14:43
Yeah
Don Mock 14:43
And generally speaking, I’ll take this one step further. Great art directors and great designers aren’t necessarily unemployed, right, right? So in a perfect world, yeah? So in a perfect world, it’d be like, hey, come sit in the ejection seat here for 30 days.And let’s do a trial run, you know, and I’m big, I’m a big fan of it has to work as much for you as it has to work for us, you know, like, like, we need people that want to what, you know, we don’t need. But like, I would much rather, and it’s better for everybody, if people want to be here because they enjoy being here, versus, Hey, I just need to pay, you know, that type of thing, right? You’re just a better creative, you know, when you’re when you’re chill about that aspect, right? But you can’t have someone do a trial run if they already have gig somewhere else.
Cuyler 15:26
Yeah thats another big thing
Don Mock 15:27
You know what I mean? So, yeah, I would say that’s the answer to the question. Is, it’s, it’s hard to gage how much you can load someone up before they crack, you know what I mean, and how much can people it’s juggling. It’s a juggling choice,
Cuyler 15:41
juggling different types of projects with different accounts. so you’re doing different kinds of design on different applications of design,
Don Mock 15:48
yeah, yeah, yeah. And some designers really love, like, just hey, they love to be busy and have a lot of different things. And some people are linear and only, can only do like a man, I can only, I gotta stay in this one lane, and this is what I’m really good at, and I have to finish this before I start something else. And I can’t, you know, and that’s just not the way our businesses, our businesses, you know, we are going up 50 different flights of stairs, one step at a time, running between each flight of stairs, depending on where clients are with the process, right? You know, we’re not just, Hey, you’re working on this one project until it’s done. It’s like, no.
Cuyler 16:26
Definetely not how it is. But I would wager that’s not how it is most I mean, I guess at large, at super big agencies, you might have a team dedicated to one account,
Don Mock 16:38
correct, that’s pretty standard. Or one, one initiative for the year, which might be broken out into several, right? Promote, like, let’s say you’re working on Wendy’s, you know, I’m making it up, you know, you’re gonna have your quarterly promotions. You’re gonna have your limited time offer products, you know, your ltos, you’re gonna have Frosties for $1 you know, you’re gonna have all these different things.
Cuyler 16:58
They’re over a dollar.
Don Mock 16:58
They are not $1 anymore? I’m assuming they are, maybe they aren’t, but you know they’re gonna have their, you know, their six new product launches, their four quarterly ltos, they’re this, you know. And you’re gonna have a lot of benchmarks that are cons that are consistent, right? And you’re gonna have a calendars that are planned out for 18 months, you know, okay? And you kind of, you just methodically go through that. And there’s a team of, yeah, you’ve got your account director, your current director, your art director, you’re that, you know, and it’s, oh, this person’s working on that part of the project. This person’s working on that part, you know, that type of thing, right? But they’re not jumping from all these different accounts to different accounts, you know what I mean. They’re kind of just, you know, on that one team.
Cuyler 17:04
That to me That would seem that would be too repetitive,
Don Mock 17:38
yeah, it’s not for me.
Cuyler 17:39
Yeah, yeah. I like, I like, jumping between things, I will say probably, when I first came out of college, I definitely was more of a linear minded designer, where I was like
Don Mock 17:52
It’s what you’re used to. Like, I’ve got 10 weeks to really sink my teeth into this, yeah. And then here comes me, going, Dude, I need this tomorrow, and you’re like what tomorrow? Yeah, like, or today, yeah, can I have it by lunch?
Cuyler 18:07
But that becomes a whole different kind of challenge that can also be rewarding
Don Mock 18:11
absolutely, absolutely,
Don Mock 18:12
absolutely, you know, there’s excitement in you know, moving on versus, like, I like things to keep, keep it moving, you know, like, let’s keep things rocking and rolling so that it’s, you know, it’s not lingering here for tons.
Cuyler 18:29
I would say about, like, I used to paint a lot. I still do some painting, yeah, but I used to love the beginning of a project, like the the ideation portion, and like, trying to figure out what is going to be, and then just starting, and I love, you know, the the ending of its varnishing a painting, stepping back and being like, wow, it’s done. It’s done. Yeah, the majority of the painting is everything in between, and that is the kind of just slog.
Don Mock 19:00
Is that work,
Cuyler 19:00
yeah, yeah. Just becomes work, yeah, you figured it out. You’ve staged your thing, you know, you’ve maybe photographed, you’ve you’re looking at this thing or whatever, yeah. And then it just becomes like, you know, well, I just, you know, spent 10 hours on this corner of the painting, yeah, and it’s gonna work my way.
Don Mock 19:20
Painting is remarkably technical if you want it to come out the way that you have envisioned in your mind. I think I used to joke with a buddy of mine. We used to go out for Sunday brunches before we were married and had kids and had all the time in the world to talk about art and stuff like that. And I would always joke that like to your point, the inspiration, the lightning bolt, the doodling, the playing, all that stuff up front is great at the end, for me, it’s like, just a husk of a shell of what was like, like, it’s a cicada shell that’s left over, you know, like, all the life’s already gone from it. It’s just, here’s the product leftover.
Cuyler 19:57
I get that a bit too.
Don Mock 19:58
Yeah, yeah. And a lot of times like it. Kind of takes a turn in the middle somehow, where it’s like, it’s either not necessarily frustrating, but it’s, oh, this is different than maybe I had imagined a few weeks back. It’s still fun. It’s still but it’s not, you know, it’s like, okay, let’s just wrap this baby up and move on to the next. You know, lightning, you know, because there’s always like, you know, oh, what if we did this? What if we did that? What, you know, you know, it’s, it’s all we ever do is talk about AI constantly, right? But I’m reminded of that quote, and I’m totally gonna butcher it. That’s basically like, you know, creative people, you know, AI is almost for non creative people to help them generate the idea, to execute the thing, right? You know, for us, we don’t need AI because we have too many ideas coming out too fast. you know that it’s like, we can’t get them all out. And I feel like painting, for me, was kind of one of those things, like, I’m already halfway done with the paint, like I’m mentally kind of checked out, because I kind of want to work on the next idea.
Cuyler 20:56
Oh, dude, I have a lot of unfinished paintings in my little studio,
Don Mock 21:00
all great painters do
Cuyler 21:01
I have ones where, like, a significant portion has gotten to, like, this hyper, not hyper realist, but very realistic and rendered portion. And then there’s like, white canvas, or like, bright because I tend to, like, wash my canvases, yeah, like a dark color to just get rid of the white,
Don Mock 21:17
yeah, that’s cool.
Cuyler 21:18
And you’ll still see, like, some pencil sketches and, like, a little bit of a grid back there, yeah, stuff like that, yeah. Like, sometimes I don’t know, like, I look at it, like, Yeah, I kind of like it like this. And, you know, there’s a painting of FDR, his last portrait, he was painted here. Can’t remember where, in Georgia, at the Little White House where he lived, and he had, he had died of a hemorrhage while posing for the painting.
Don Mock 21:44
Oh, really, I don’t know this
Cuyler 21:46
the painting is like, you know, half unfinished, yeah, but it kind of became famous
Don Mock 21:52
well But that’s the best part. It’s like the Michelangelo, like, when you go to Florence and it’s the David Museum, and you see
Cuyler 21:58
all the the captives
Don Mock 21:59
the slaves and everything going through whatever. And it’s like the half marbled half kind of chisel that’s far more interesting to me, than the technical masterpiece of I mean, it’s incredible, don’t get me wrong. I mean, it’s absolutely incredible. But how you see, like, here’s this humongous block of marble, and then how he could see through that and start to reveal what was in his mind, that the process is what we’re talking about right now, is that the process is so much more interesting.
Cuyler 22:24
That was a piece that kind of teetered on modern art, because in some ways, the the people or the subject matter is interacting with the medium. which isn’t totally, not what the function of art was previous Yeah, that’s a cool when you if, when you go see the David, there’s a room that precedes the David, and you walk through and and those sculptures kind of line it, yeah, as you’re approaching the atrium, but the foyer, yeah, where the David is
Don Mock 22:59
yeah, guess who set the alarm off, leaning on the balcony?
Cuyler 23:02
Really? Oh, wow, good lord
Don Mock 23:04
yeah, boo boo boo boo boo boo. That wasn’t me. I’m out. Let’s go, honey. You know, like, yeah, it was pretty funny. So
Cuyler 23:10
I want to go back the David is a lot bigger in person than you imagine.
Don Mock 23:13
Yeah, it’s gigantic.
Cuyler 23:14
And it really is, like, pristine, like, white marble. Yeah, it’s much more impressive in person. It’s one of those pieces also where, like, everyone always says, Oh, the David’s out of proportion. It’s like, but it was made for people who are standing below it to look at it. Yeah? And so the, the foreshortened aspect, when you’re looking up, it compensates for that its actually really well done, he didn’t anticipate cell phone pictures.
Don Mock 23:41
Yeah, it’s are we seven heads tall? Or are we eight heads in terms of what proportion is, but it’s literally what I we were talking about earlier. Context matters and clients to turn this back around a design, you know, we’re in a digital age where we send everybody PDFs, you know. And I am constantly reminding people, hey, this is a tradeshow backdrop you know, the bottom half of your trade show backdrop is going to be covered by tables, chairs, book bags and people standing there. Like, stop trying to put copy at the bottom of your tradeshow, you know.
Cuyler 24:18
And can you make the logo bigger and I’m like, it is currently three feet wide
Don Mock 24:22
yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But you’re looking at it on, you know, worst case scenario, your phone, you know
Cuyler 24:28
a lot of them probably are doing that
Don Mock 24:30
yeah, yeah. And it’s like, or hey I got my iPad, or I got my 13 inch laptop, and I’m looking at this PDF, giving review, you know. And it’s like, no, no. Guys think contextually. Or, how many case stackers have we done for brands and clients aren’t thinking, Oh, wow, the case stacker is filled with actual products
Cuyler 24:30
more logos…the product will be there
Don Mock 24:53
yeah, yeah. So you know, David, I think is a great example of that. Like, you can’t, like, yes, in Janssens history of art, it’s not meant to be presented in that fashion, you know, it’s not meant to be photographed that way.
Don Mock 25:06
It’s not all different
Cuyler 25:07
But think about, like, 90, however, many percent of all people, that’s the only way they see David it’s a picture of the David, taken from, from way back.
Don Mock 25:17
Yeah, telephoto.
Cuyler 25:19
Yeah But when you’re standing underneath it, it totally does not look out proportionate at all.
Don Mock 25:24
Yeah, it looks remarkably different. It’s incredible. All right, well, we’ve gone off the rails a little bit in terms of what we have learned
Cuyler 25:30
no, it’s all good, man.
Don Mock 25:31
All right. I always ask Rob, as you know, where can everybody find us Cuyler?
Cuyler 25:36
Find us online at www.mocktheagency.com, and on the socials @mocktheagency
Don Mock 25:41
Exactly. All right, we’ll see you next time, everybody. Thanks so much.
Cuyler 25:44
Take it easy.
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