Episode Transcript
Don Mock 0:20
Alright, episode 35. We’re back, and we’re also back with a special guest. My beautiful, loving wife, Rachele.
Rachele Mock 0:26
I kind of have a face for podcasting tone.
Don Mock 0:28
Oh no.
Rachele Mock 0:29
I mean, I definitely am dressed for podcasting.
Don Mock 0:31
Well, you popped by the office, and we’ve had a couple great conversations. One about Massimo, in the past.
Rachele Mock 0:38
Yeah.
Don Mock 0:38
Then we did another one about Sagmeister, and sort of our shared experience there, although both of them are shared experiences. Well, let’s just keep the theme rolling and let’s go with design inspiration, like famous designers that had an impact on your career, or people that you looked up to. Maybe not necessarily met. You know, we don’t have to pontificate about how amazing we are and how we’ve met all these amazing people and whatnot. Just general graphic designers. Since you’re a designer, and I’m a designer at heart, that sort of had a big impact on our career, right?
Rachele Mock 1:08
Okay, yeah.
Don Mock 1:09
Does anybody come to, I’m springing this on you. There’s no show notes. There’s no prep here. You know, I can see the the gears are turning.
Rachele Mock 1:16
Yeah.
Don Mock 1:17
What is coming to your mind, or do you want me to go first?
Rachele Mock 1:19
No. I mean, one of the Queen’s of New York design, Pentagram.
Don Mock 1:26
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 1:26
Paula Scher.
Don Mock 1:27
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 1:28
Paula Scher. The Public Theater.
Don Mock 1:30
Sure.
Rachele Mock 1:31
Took the kids there this summer.
Don Mock 1:32
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 1:34
The story about her is, and you could probably tell it a little bit better.
Don Mock 1:39
No, go for it.
Rachele Mock 1:39
But she’s famous for the Citibank logo, you know?
Don Mock 1:42
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 1:42
When Citibank merged with Traveler’s insurance.
Don Mock 1:45
Tranveler’s insurance. Yeah.
Rachele Mock 1:46
And she was sitting in the meeting, and she had her notebook out like you, and I do right here.
Don Mock 1:51
Yep.
Rachele Mock 1:51
And she drew it, and it’s CITI, and the umbrella is going from the I to the I, and the T is the handle of the umbrella. And she did it right then. And I believe somebody called her out on it, or maybe this is just folklore, but it was. Okay, so you did that in five minutes. Why do I need to pay you?
Don Mock 2:13
Oh, I haven’t heard that part of it.
Rachele Mock 2:15
Really?
Don Mock 2:15
No, no.
Rachele Mock 2:15
Yeah.
Don Mock 2:16
I heard that she had the inspiration in the meeting. I didn’t realize it was it was realized at that meeting.
Rachele Mock 2:22
Again, this could be folklore. I don’t have proof. I would love to have a conversation with her about it.
Don Mock 2:28
Sure.
Rachele Mock 2:29
But, I believe you know, I don’t know who said that to her. Maybe the client did, you know, why are we paying you?
Don Mock 2:35
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 2:36
$50,000. $500,000, whatever. Whatever, they were paying the fee. She said, you know?
Don Mock 2:41
Probably a lot because it’s the New York Penatgram.
Rachele Mock 2:42
She said, well, you know, I did that in five minutes, but I also did it in 25 years and five minutes.
Don Mock 2:49
Yeah, exactly.
Rachele Mock 2:50
And that goes to a few of the things you and I have spoken about so far is, we have not been our young design selves for a while. We can solve problems quicker.
Don Mock 3:02
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 3:02
We can sometimes work faster. That doesn’t mean we should cut our fees and things.
Don Mock 3:07
Sure, sure. I didn’t realize we’re talking about fees on this one or not.
Rachele Mock 3:10
Sorry, let’s edit that one out.
Don Mock 3:11
That’s strong.
Rachele Mock 3:12
What about you, Don-o? I mean, Paula Scher. She’s, look her up. I mean, just look her up if you’re a student listening to this, because she’s amazing.
Don Mock 3:21
Yeah, absolutely.
Rachele Mock 3:21
Do you have any of her projects that you know?
Don Mock 3:24
No, I mean, the first one that comes to mind obviously, is the Public.
Rachele Mock 3:27
Mhm, mhm.
Don Mock 3:27
Because it’s such a great example of typography, expressive typography.
Rachele Mock 3:33
Yeah. Bring in ‘da Noise, Bring in ‘da Funk. Savion Glover, I believe in the 90’s.
Don Mock 3:38
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 3:38
That was pretty cool.
Don Mock 3:40
That was in every single graphic designer in the middle of the 90’s. But, we’re dating ourselves because we’re starting to get older, right?
Rachele Mock 3:45
But, we started out dating.
Don Mock 3:48
No, I think for me, I would say I’m gonna throw an oddball out here.
Rachele Mock 3:52
I’m ready.
Don Mock 3:52
For graphic design inspiration, when I stumbled across or was brought up in a class or somehow found Tibor Kalman. Tibor is probably my most, I don’t want to say cherished, but somebody that I’d never met.
Rachele Mock 4:08
Right.
Don Mock 4:09
Somebody that I have no tendrils to. But, I do have a love and appreciation of what he did, back in the day and everything. I will say that we have quite a copious library of graphic design books of the history of graphic design, of designers of firms, of all sorts of different things, right?
Rachele Mock 4:28
I’m looking at them, right here.
Don Mock 4:29
And Tibor’s book is probably the only book that I’ve literally read every single letter of, cover to cover multiple times.
Rachele Mock 4:38
Right.
Don Mock 4:38
Right. And I think that Tibor, is spelled T-i-b-o-r, for those curious out there. Very interesting story. Very interesting designs around a studio called M & Co. or the letter M. I think what is the inspiration for me around Tibor is that, and we mentioned this on a previous podcast with Massimo, was that it was really my foray into the ubiquity of graphic design, being omnipresent. That was a lot of SAT words there, but meaning he did not only design, call it corporate identity and call it print design.
Rachele Mock 5:20
Right.
Don Mock 5:22
Believe it or not people out there there was designed before the web, right. So, when everything was printed, and whatnot, but then also really veered into ingenuity with product design, with graphic design in products. Very influential with typography, motion typography with music videos, way back in the day, late 80s, and whatnot. Is what I mean, by way back in the day. He designed a lot of products that are actually still being sold in the Museum of Modern Art gift store, actually, too.
Rachele Mock 5:58
Right.
Don Mock 5:58
So, I mean, he really transcended design, advertising, all sorts of different things. And then, I love the little anecdotes and factoids about, he did a lot of really fun, awesome work for, I believe it was a restaurant, like a deli or something like that, like in New York.
Rachele Mock 6:16
Mhm.
Don Mock 6:16
And it was for a lot of trade for lunches, because I remember reading. Wait a minute, how in the world did this teeny little restaurant, how could they afford like M & Co.’s fees for all this, you know?
Rachele Mock 6:27
Sure. Sure.
Don Mock 6:27
What in the world, right? And it was, they got to eat lunch on Friday, or whatever the trade was.
Rachele Mock 6:34
Right. Right.
Don Mock 6:35
So, it was kind of really interesting for me to sort of bear witness to how design can transcend off the printed page into actual modern devices, and then products, and there was a lot of really, really nerdy graphic design for graphic design projects, too.
Rachele Mock 6:55
Oh, yeah.
Don Mock 6:56
There’s a set of dice where it’s like, instead of one through six, it’s the different typefaces. It’s like Budoni, Futura, all that kind of stuff. So, I would say Tibor Kalman definitely is right up there for me.
Rachele Mock 7:10
I mean, and a lot of his work, it went to the side of activism.
Don Mock 7:15
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 7:15
I mean, he did things for Benetton.
Don Mock 7:18
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 7:18
Then what, he was the creative director of Colors Magazine?
Don Mock 7:21
Yeah, exactly.
Rachele Mock 7:22
And that was at the beginning of the AIDS pandemic.
Don Mock 7:26
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 7:26
And he did things that people were not comfortable with.
Don Mock 7:30
Yeah, he would pick a topic and really blow that out.
Rachele Mock 7:33
Yeah.
Don Mock 7:33
For awareness, to the point of uncomfortableness, of course.
Rachele Mock 7:37
Which is a great thing when you’re in the world of design and advertising.
Don Mock 7:44
There’s a famous exercise, and it’s all over the internet, I’m sure by now, but where one of the issues of colors was about race. And again, this is like pre Photoshop. I mean, no one’s like rockin Photoshop. Photoshop may have been out, but I don’t even think there was Photoshop layers. I remember layers came in version three. And it was he took, I’m gonna mess this up. But, it was imagery of Spike Lee, I believe. It was a it was a race swap, is what he did.
Rachele Mock 8:11
Okay. Okay.
Don Mock 8:12
And the topic was, we’re talking about race. That was what the issue of the magazine was about.
Rachele Mock 8:16
Right.
Don Mock 8:16
But, it was like, would our perceptions of things change according to race, right? And I believe he made Spike Lee, a white guy.
Rachele Mock 8:24
Okay.
Don Mock 8:24
He made Arnold Schwarzenegger, Chinese. You know, I think he changed the race of the Pope.
Rachele Mock 8:31
Wow.
Don Mock 8:31
They’re also very touchy sort of subjects just to spark dialogue and curiosity. That was interesting. So, again, that’s design being conceptual. Being more advertorial to a certain extent.
Rachele Mock 8:45
Yeah.
Don Mock 8:46
So, yeah, thanks for bringing up the colors thing. I wasn’t even thinking about, I mean, such a varied career, that it really was all over the place. So, I’m gonna say Tibor Kalman.
Rachele Mock 8:58
Just to sort of spiral off Tibor. Wis wife, Maira Kalman, is one of my favorite children’s book illustrators. She’s an illustrator in general. But man, that book What Pete Ate, the dog book, from A to Z. She just has this flair for New York.
Don Mock 9:21
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 9:21
And just a little Yiddish in her books. And if you haven’t read What Pete Ate with your kids, and they will be repeating it to you, but it’s a long book.
Don Mock 9:36
Every time you stopped by we mentioned New York, I feel a little bit. You’re a New Yorker at heart.
Rachele Mock 9:42
I’m really not.
Don Mock 9:42
Well, it’s like there’s a little piece of my heart that’s always in San Francisco.
Rachele Mock 9:44
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Don Mock 9:46
Really more from a sports team perspective than anything else.
Rachele Mock 9:50
You know, just to show off, I did introduce myself to her at a design conference.
Don Mock 9:55
Yeah, you have balls of steel. I’m just gonna say that.
Rachele Mock 10:00
Who doesn’t love, who doesn’t love some, you know?
Don Mock 10:02
Somebody coming up and saying I love your work?
Rachele Mock 10:04
Yeah.
Don Mock 10:04
Or appreciate you, or thank you, or whatever?
Rachele Mock 10:06
Yeah. I mean, come on.
Don Mock 10:08
No, you’ve gone up to David Carson at a surf show.
Rachele Mock 10:13
Surf Expo.
Don Mock 10:13
Surf Expo down in Orlando.
Rachele Mock 10:15
He was just sitting there.
Don Mock 10:16
You were like hey, are you David Carson?
Rachele Mock 10:17
Yeah, and I said you’ve got to come meet my husband.
Don Mock 10:20
Yeah, that was super fun.
Rachele Mock 10:21
And then I did put you on the spot, though. Do you remember? Because I was like, hey look who this is Don.
Don Mock 10:26
Oh no.
Rachele Mock 10:27
And you were a little bit like, I was like, Don. David Carson, our hero.
Don Mock 10:31
Well I don’t think I was right, in the right frame of mind.
Rachele Mock 10:33
No, I mean, we were we’re doing something else for you know, Surf Expo.
Don Mock 10:37
David Carson is a great famous designer.
Rachele Mock 10:39
Oh, yeah.
Don Mock 10:39
From the 90’s too.
Rachele Mock 10:41
He was who everybody loved when we were..
Don Mock 10:44
Oh, yeah.
Rachele Mock 10:45
Juniors and seniors in college and I’m sure our professors were not thrilled with his design. Because they were trying to teach us the rules, and all he did was break them.
Don Mock 10:55
Well, he’s self taught too. I don’t think he had a full layout and proportion or a type one teacher, right?
Rachele Mock 11:03
Right.
Don Mock 11:03
But, I would say that he is the graphic design personification of 90’s grunge.
Rachele Mock 11:08
Yeah.
Don Mock 11:08
Well, I mean, if you think about 80’s hair metal, 90’s grunge, musical movements or whatever, right? He was like Nirvana and Pearl Jam for a Pepsi ad. You know what I mean?
Rachele Mock 11:23
Right.
Don Mock 11:23
Sort of broke all the rules. He’s very famous for Reagan magazine.
Rachele Mock 11:27
Right.
Don Mock 11:27
And sort of like grid, what grid? I mean, we’re just grunging up and he would purposely take terrible photography, right? Like blurry photography on those little clicking, or whatever.
Rachele Mock 11:39
Oh, yeah point and shoots.
Don Mock 11:41
Yeah, develop those, scan those in his backgrounds. There was no like, stock photography resources.
Rachele Mock 11:47
Right, and he didn’t care about resolution.
Don Mock 11:49
No, but I think that was what made it so cool, though, was like I found this chewed up ball of bubblegum in the gutter, on the side. I’m totally putting words in his mouth.
Rachele Mock 12:01
Yeah, you are.
Don Mock 12:01
And that it was like, let’s scan that in and use it as a texture in this, you know?
Rachele Mock 12:04
Yeah.
Don Mock 12:05
It was kind of lost and found guerilla style, you know, design, which I think really appealed. He tapped into a good visualization of the youth at that time, which I think is cool.
Rachele Mock 12:16
Right.
Don Mock 12:17
But yeah, okay. I mean, you went up to Maira and said hello. You went up to Carson and said hello. You’ve done all that fun stuff.
Rachele Mock 12:22
It’s wild, because they go to specific places where they are famous, you know everybody’s going to recognize them.
Don Mock 12:30
But Carson was not, he was at a surf show.
Rachele Mock 12:32
No, yeah. Nobody at the surf show really would have known him.
Don Mock 12:35
He worked on a lot of Surf magazines.
Rachele Mock 12:37
I think he was the Creative Director for Surfer Magazine.
Don Mock 12:40
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 12:41
But, so at a design conference, Maira, David, they would all be swarmed, but you run into them in the airport or something. And then they’re, you know, they’re back to being.
Don Mock 12:58
Yeah, nobody knows who these people are except for us.
Rachele Mock 12:59
Right. So, it’s kind of it’s kind of cool. I mean, it’s kind of cool to be renowned in your field.
Don Mock 13:04
Yeah, for sure. Any other sort of design inspiration? I mean, you mentioned Paula, obviously. I mentioned Tibor. Anybody else that comes to mind? We can do another podcast another time, talking about the Mount Rushmore of design.
Rachele Mock 13:20
Yeah.
Don Mock 13:21
Just any closing thoughts on anything we’ve discussed?
Rachele Mock 13:24
Well, I don’t think it would close the thoughts. I think it would just open it up 20 more minutes.
Don Mock 13:27
Go for it. Well, what? Give us a little teaser?
Rachele Mock 13:29
Well, especially when I was in grad school and began teaching. There’s a graphic designer out there named Ellen Lupton. And she has probably written the most graphic design books out there. I would teach my typography one class out of her book called Thinking With Type, which she, there’s, I couldn’t even imagine how many additions there are right now.
Don Mock 13:56
Okay.
Rachele Mock 13:56
But she’s done all kinds, and I think she speaks to me because she’s also a mom. She’s an educator.
Don Mock 14:02
Okay.
Rachele Mock 14:02
She still practices. She is married to a graphic designer also.
Don Mock 14:07
Oh my word.
Rachele Mock 14:08
So, it’s a lot of similarities.
Don Mock 14:09
It’s like a theme going on here.
Rachele Mock 14:10
Yeah. And once again, I’ve walked up to her.
Don Mock 14:12
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 14:13
But she was somebody, when I was in grad school. I really was aspiring to be. Yeah, so that’s somebody who’s really influenced me.
Don Mock 14:24
L-u-p-t-o-n?
Rachele Mock 14:26
Yeah. Ellen Lupton.
Don Mock 14:28
Check her out everybody.
Rachele Mock 14:29
Yeah.
Don Mock 14:30
Alright and with that, we’ll wrap it up for the day. Thanks for listening. You can find us on the interwebs, as Rob likes to say at mocktheagency.com. Look us up on the socials, and feel free to drop us a note at hello@mocktheagency, for anything you want us to chat about or any feedback and whatever, we’ll take it. Alright, thanks, everybody. Say goodbye, Rachele.
Rachele Mock 14:51
Goodbye, Rachele.
Comments are closed.