Episode Transcript
Don Mock 0:20
All right, we’re back with Episode 85. And we’re back with Rachele. Hello.
Rachele Mock 0:24
Hello.
Don Mock 0:25
Welcome back.
Rachele Mock 0:26
Thank you. Good to be here.
Don Mock 0:27
All right. We’re trying to knock one of these babies out before we go eat lunch, is that the plan?
Rachele Mock 0:30
I’m starving.
Don Mock 0:31
I know, I’m starving, too. What do you feeling for lunch today?
Rachele Mock 0:33
I think a double Philly Cheesesteak.
Don Mock 0:37
Whoa, okay. That’s a fancy lunch. That sounds like something I would eat.
Rachele Mock 0:41
I think sashimi a couple doors down would be fantastic.
Don Mock 0:43
Oh, you want sush.
Rachele Mock 0:44
When do I not? Did you have it yesterday?
Don Mock 0:46
No, no, I had leftovers from the house yesterday. That’s what I had. Because I had a Philly cheesesteak, actually, the day before.
Rachele Mock 0:53
That’s right.
Don Mock 0:53
That’s right. All right. What are we gonna talk about today, Rach? What’s about to happen?
Rachele Mock 0:57
We’re gonna do a podcast about advertising, design.
Don Mock 1:02
All right. So one of the podcasts, one of the times we always get together and sort of chit chat. We have fun sort of reminiscing about our previous lives with meeting and greeting other designers out in the world. Or advertising people.
Rachele Mock 1:17
Yeah. Our heroes, our famous people.
Don Mock 1:19
Yeah. So we did one about Vignelli, which was a fun one. And thought we could sort of stroll down another one of those weird encounters with other peeps. And talk about Chip Kidd. Chip Kidd. Super fun. Interesting. I guess famous. I don’t know, would you call him famous? I don’t know. Designer, but also, comic book aficionado. Also a writer. I mean, he’s kind of done a little bit of everything.
Rachele Mock 1:47
He’s written two novels, right?
Don Mock 1:49
Yeah. Cheese monkeys. Didn’t he write Cheese Monkeys?
Rachele Mock 1:51
He wrote Cheese Monkeys, which came out when we were in college. And after that it was The Learners. He has the Cooper Hewitt National Design Award for communication.
Don Mock 2:01
Wow.
Rachele Mock 2:02
Which is pretty exciting.
Don Mock 2:03
That is pretty exciting.
Rachele Mock 2:04
He got that in 2007.
Don Mock 2:05
Yeah, he’s a badass.
Rachele Mock 2:06
Yeah. And then he’s also got one of those AIGA metals, which you and I will never have because we forget to pay our dues.
Don Mock 2:12
No, I don’t… we’ve discussed this on the pod. Awards and all that, I have no interest in doing any of that type of stuff.
Rachele Mock 2:20
I know. I know.
Don Mock 2:22
Winning medals and trophies and whatever. None of that’s… it’s so bizarre for our industry, which is so based on metrics now and direct impact. Did we sell more widgets? Did we get more eyeballs here and there. Universally, almost all of the award shows in this industry are based completely on subjectivity, and did it make somebody laugh. It has actually no merit on anything being successful whatsoever. So I always get a kick out of RFPs or clients that are like, Hey, how many awards? It’s like, none of that means anything. It means nothing.
Rachele Mock 2:53
Yeah, I agree.
Don Mock 2:55
So yeah, we stopped participating in that.
Rachele Mock 2:56
I agree until I win an award.
Don Mock 2:57
Yeah. Well, hey, I mean, everyone likes to be loved, but I’m not going… it’s a pay to play system. It’s like, oh, yeah, you want a bunch of addies? Well, yeah, you paid like 20 grand and entrance fees.
Rachele Mock 3:07
Yeah. The entrance fees for a lot of those are –
Don Mock 3:09
Yeah, it’s ridiculous.
Rachele Mock 3:10
They don’t do mom and pop shops.
Don Mock 3:12
Yeah. Well, we’re not exactly a mom and pop shop.
Rachele Mock 3:17
I’m a mom and you’re a pop.
Don Mock 3:18
Yeah, that’s true, I guess. All right. So Chip, Kidd, What are your thoughts on Chip, and when did we meet him? I honestly don’t remember the name of the convention. We met him a couple times, I think, actually.
Rachele Mock 3:30
One time, I think I was in grad school still. So I mention grad school every single time I come on, but I was in grad school from 2007 to 2008. So it must have been around there. I popped… I knew he was speaking at the Portfolio Center, which is now the Miami Ad School here in Atlanta. And we got a babysitter. I went. I had a few of his books, including The Cheese Monkeys, which my mom sent to me when I was in college, because it is a story of an intense experience at art school. I remember my mom saying, “Does that kind of stuff really happen?”
Don Mock 4:07
I read it, but I honestly don’t remember anything about it.
Rachele Mock 4:09
I remember a project was lit on fire, I believe, by a professor. Somebody call me out if I’m wrong on that. Or I’ll reread it this summer. Anyway, I had a few of his books, maybe a monograph of his and definitely had The Cheese Monkeys in my hand. Maybe I only had The Cheese Monkeys. But it must have been around when he started, I think doing TED Talks. But he gave a great talk at the Portfolio Center. What I remember is when I walked in, I think I was the only person who knew who he was. He was just rambling around the Portfolio Center looking at student projects all by himself. No one was –
Don Mock 4:51
Bothering him?
Rachele Mock 4:51
Bothering him. It was really funny. So I just walked up to him and I wasn’t going to bother him either. I thought, oh, maybe he doesn’t want to be bothered. But I’m also thinking why is he out here? And as you and I have said a million times, who doesn’t like a little hero worship here or there?
Don Mock 5:07
Sure, sure.
Rachele Mock 5:07
You know, “Don Mock, you taught me at the creative circus 15 years ago.” And, “Oh my god!” We love that stuff. So I went up and I said, “Hey, sorry to bother you. But could I get you to sign my book?” And he said, “Sure, no problem. I always have a Sharpie with me at these things.”
Don Mock 5:27
Was it a black sharpie or was it a silver metallic Sharpie?
Rachele Mock 5:29
No, it was black. And I said, “Yay!” Like, “Yay, thanks for doing this!” So he writes on my book, and he’s good – I mean, people are probably getting better at this. I know, Sagmeister signs books in an interesting way, too. But Chip signs books in a totally different way. He wrote all down not the spine, the page’s side. So the first thing he wrote was like, “Yay.” I should have brought it with me because I could have told you. But it’s “Yay, exclamation point, exclamation point.” And then it’s like, “To Rachele.” I think maybe I gave him my card or something. So he could see how to spell my name. And he wrote something funny on it. So that, and then I was like, “Okay, well, I’ll leave you alone.” He’s like, “Well, no. What’s your story?” He’s just very, very nice.
Don Mock 6:14
He’s a very personable guy.
Rachele Mock 6:15
I was like, “Oh, well, I’ve been practicing for a number of years. I’m in grad school now. No, I don’t go to school here. But read The Cheese Monkeys when I was in college.” And he was very nice to talk to. And then I think somebody came and was like, “You’re on.” He was like, “It was so nice to meet you, Rachele.” He was just really nice. So what I remember though, with that I took away from this lecture, and his slideshow and everything, is that his work and how his work… what it is infused with is a love of comic books. And I know a guy like that.
Don Mock 6:36
Sure.
Rachele Mock 6:50
So that was pretty interesting. And he’s done a lot of – what the covers? For a lot of your comic books in your…
Don Mock 7:01
Yeah.
Rachele Mock 7:01
So I want to hear what he’s done that we have at home in our comic book, graphic novel library. You can tell us about that. But that’s my short experience with Chip. And then you had an experience with him. And then I came and said, Hello.
Don Mock 7:18
Yeah, but What? Where was that?
Rachele Mock 7:20
That was in Memphis at an AIGA conference.
Don Mock 7:22
Okay. That’s what that was. I was at a luncheon table with him or something.
Rachele Mock 7:25
Yeah, we did.
Don Mock 7:26
We ate lunch together or something.
Rachele Mock 7:27
Yeah. You did a round table with him. I think I was next door. But we haven’t really funny picture of the two of you.
Don Mock 7:34
Really?
Rachele Mock 7:34
Yeah. It’s almost like you guys have this similar sense of humor or something. You made one of your funny faces. He made one of his funny faces.
Don Mock 7:42
We’ve got to dig that up. I don’t remember this at all. I have a terrible memory.
Rachele Mock 7:46
I remember when we’ve taken a picture. Otherwise.
Don Mock 7:48
Well, what’s interesting, I guess, for those that don’t know… of course, you can go to, I’m sure his website’s probably chipkidd.com or whatever. But he is a Penguin Random House designer. That’s how he cut his teeth. He did a tremendous amount of a novel covers. I mean, book jacket design. I think that’s kind of where he started and I think he’s still may be with Penguin. I mean, he was there forever, like 20 years, plus. And he did a tremendous amount of famous, iconic designs, like the original Jurassic Park cover. He’s done all sorts of great covers. So he was always in book jacket design. I think part of the conference – I mean, again, we’re gonna date ourselves a little bit, but – was, hey, now, you don’t go into a Barnes and Noble anymore and see all the magical book jackets. Everything is reduced down to thumbnails online. These teeny little things. So I believe, some of his lecture was about the evolution of design – Kindles, iPads, you know, reading things digitally. That transition from large design kind of down to smaller thumbnail design. Which is kind of true for everything now. I mean, music covers, I used to have a big old record LP. Now you got like a little one-inch thumbnail, if that, on your iPhone. Things like that.
Rachele Mock 9:09
Do you think that lends itself to how it is designed? Do you think it almost has to work at one inch by one inch before it works?
Don Mock 9:14
Well, it depends. But yeah, definitely, definitely. There’s certainly a… Cuyler and I have talked about this on a previous pod, but we do a lot of music cover design for one of our clients that, does a lot of licensed music through APM Universal, all that kind of stuff. We always preview everything. What it would look like in a search on one of their directories? So we build the files nice and big, but it’s a digital album. It’s going to be in a small setting surrounded by a sea of everybody else. So I think it is important to do that. But anyway –
Rachele Mock 9:54
Sorry, I’m saying one inch by one inch. But I’m looking at Spotify right now as we talk and –
Don Mock 10:00
They’re not even that big.
Rachele Mock 10:02
Yeah, it’s even half an inch. That’s what. But it’s wild that you can also read it. Sorry, I digress.
Don Mock 10:06
Well, it’s probably like 100 pixels or 180 or something, whatever. the case may be, more social format. So Chip did a lot of that stuff. He’s a really nice guy. Super nice guy. Very interesting personality. One thing that always stands out – this is just a weird side note. He did a TED talk, which is great. Everybody should should check it out or whatever. But he’s super hip, he’s super cool. He had these crazy, wacky glasses. He wears these glasses. But he had these glasses that only had one earpiece. Remember this at all? It only had one thing that goes over your ear, because the glasses are so cool. So it did –
Rachele Mock 10:38
I think that’s what he’s wearing in the photo together.
Don Mock 10:40
It only has the right or the left. And as you can imagine, it pulls to one side. So he’s always rearranging his glasses. And it’s like, yeah, it looks cool. You’re a hipster. Cool things are happening. But it’s super distracting. Just wear your normal glasses, dude. That type of thing.
Rachele Mock 10:54
Yeah.
Don Mock 10:54
So he is a big original art aficionado. I am as well. So we did the roundtable or whatnot. Then it was, “Hey, man.” Just like you. I kind of nerded out. A little fanboy. He designed a lot of DC Comics, a lot of DC comic covers, and a lot of logo design for a lot of mastheads. Gonzo and I did a podcast talking about how the covers of comics really are ads to try to get you to pick something off of the newsstand and whatnot. So he did a lot of logo design, a lot of typography, a lot of cover design. And then he also did a lot of the historical books like, “Oh, DC in the 60s. DC in the -.” That type of thing, and designing that whole book, and was really into zooming in on old pulp paper and using the textures and the halftone patterns and the way things were printed as early as big graphic images. Really cool stuff. So he did a book called Bat Manga. It was in the 60s and 70s, before the digitalization of shrinking the world. Marvel and DC licensed off a lot of characters to other countries. And they were kind of free to do their own thing. That’s why you have the weird Japanese Spiderman that has a totally different story. A totally different thing. Batman was the same way.
Rachele Mock 11:41
Was that a big moneymaker for them?
Don Mock 12:18
Yeah. They licensed it off. They got a piece of the publishing and then whatever happened. TV shows and whatever. So there’s this whole alternate world of the characters that we know, totally treated differently, culturally and backstory – everything. Overseas. So he did this really interesting book called Bat Manga. Manga, obviously, is sort of the serialized graphic novels in Japan. Super, super popular. Everybody reads manga. So he designed this cool book. Now part of the deal with the book, though, was he signed every single one that was printed. So if you bought one, it already came signed by Chip. So it was like, Hey, I’ve got the Batman. I know you already signed it, but I’m kind of hoping you could do like a…” and so he drew this awesome Batman. I think Robin might actually be in it, too. And wrote a funny little thing for mine as well. We kind of nerded out on that.
Rachele Mock 13:13
Why don’t we do this? Why don’t we take some images and we’ll put them up on the interwebs?
Don Mock 13:20
Are you giving me homework now? Is that what’s happening?
Rachele Mock 13:21
Give Cuyler the homework.
Don Mock 13:22
Oh, okay.
Rachele Mock 13:23
(Laughing) I’ll send him the images.
Don Mock 13:27
Well, you gotta dig up all these old photos and stuff.
Rachele Mock 13:29
I can do it. Yeah. I’m good at that.
Don Mock 13:31
So we talked a lot about that. We talked a lot about original comic art and stuff like that. He’s just an interesting character. I haven’t had a lot of really good conversation. I mean, he probably doesn’t remember any of this.
Rachele Mock 13:41
No, no.
Don Mock 13:42
Because the guy has done, I don’t know, a gajillion lectures and all sorts of meetings, meets and greets. And this was over 10 years ago. So super fun. But a lot of interesting… I love his design aesthetic. He primarily did a bunch of stuff with DC Comics. But then, more recently, has done a bunch of stuff with Marvel. JJ Abrams. Kidd wrote a Spider Man limited series, and he did all of the –
Rachele Mock 14:09
Had no idea.
Don Mock 14:10
Interesting covers for that. He’s really into… it’s cool. It tickles me the right way, because it’s really into die cuts. And paper materials and old school, kind of the way we grew up as designers, versus like, Oh, nothing ever gets printed anymore. Design for screens. So a lot of fun, simple designs, a lot of graphic expression, things like that. I see you feverishly looking over at your phone right now. What are you digging up?
Rachele Mock 14:37
Texting my boyfriend.
Don Mock 14:39
Any other information about Chip?
Rachele Mock 14:41
Yeah, no. Cavalier in Clay.
Don Mock 14:44
Oh, Yeah, that’s right.
Rachele Mock 14:46
That might have been the first time… I don’t think I even knew who he was. But man, I mean, you and I both inhaled that book. That’s that’s his professional work. He took he took the halftones and everything that you were talking about and put it in it. The story is fascinating about the start of a comic book. And then the relationship between the writer and the designer, so I was thinking about that, but I was also thinking he does cool things in his book. Book one – that’s his one of his monographs – I think it’s like 1996 to 2006, his work or whatever. It only probably 12 by nine.
Don Mock 14:46
Okay, landscape format.
Rachele Mock 15:30
But the hardcover on it is six by nine.
Don Mock 15:35
Okay.
Rachele Mock 15:37
So the pages come out of it. So the hardcover is six by nine, but the pages are 12 by nine coming out of it, if that makes sense.
Don Mock 15:45
Yeah, they’re they’re long and floppy hanging out of the hardcover. Yeah.
Rachele Mock 15:48
He takes risks with cool stuff like that. Probably because he does work for a publishing house.
Don Mock 15:53
Yeah, absolutely.
Rachele Mock 15:54
Yeah. He can talk to whoever and –
Don Mock 15:56
Sagmeister does a bunch of that weird die cut cardboard strange things. Particulars. And sort of that red – what do you cacll that? Acetate that comes through, that type of stuff.
Rachele Mock 16:08
Something else that you and Chip have in common is you’re collectors. Not just of comic books, but of – What would you call? I mean tangible items that, not like a Lego, but little figurines and things like that. You put them. One of the first articles I ever read about him, I think was a New York Magazine and it had cool photos of his place in New York.
Don Mock 16:32
Yeah, he’s a compic nerd. Just like me. It’s awesome.
Rachele Mock 16:34
Yeah. So yeah, you guys –
Don Mock 16:36
He’s got an appreciation for the sequential storytelling. And the mastery of illustrations. There’s another interesting side note. He did write a comic book. He wrote a Batman series called “Batman Death by Design. He created a villain in the Batman series, and the villains name is Exacto.
Rachele Mock 16:58
Haha! That’s the greatest! I didn’t… that’s great!
Don Mock 17:00
Yeah, after the old exacto blades.
Rachele Mock 17:02
So it’s spelled the same way?
Don Mock 17:04
Yeah. I don’t remember who illustrated that off the top of my head.
Rachele Mock 17:10
Oh, here it is. It’s Dave Taylor.
Don Mock 17:12
David Taylor, okay.
Rachele Mock 17:12
It was on the tip of your tongue.
Don Mock 17:14
Okay.
Rachele Mock 17:14
This is beautiful, though. The whole…
Don Mock 17:16
Well, for those that are so interested, I actually bought a page of that book as well. So I have I have an original illustration. One of the published pages from that series.
Rachele Mock 17:27
Wow.
Don Mock 17:27
Yeah, it came up for auction in one of our little things. It was a great price, so I couldn’t help it. I was like, Hey, this is so specific to all of my loves, you know?
Rachele Mock 17:37
Yeah. That’s pretty cool.
Don Mock 17:38
So yeah, it’s pretty neat, actually.
Rachele Mock 17:40
So when you were on the roundtable, is there anything that he talked about or questions people had? Like, I think, it was like eight of you, including him. It was really cool. Anything that you took away from that, that you remember?
Don Mock 17:55
I mean, not particularly. In terms of his viewpoint on design, or any of that kind of stuff? No, I think it was just an enjoyable conversation amongst a bunch of people at a table. And I think there was… I mean, again, this was 10-15 years ago or so. So there was a lot of conversation about the transformation of print to digital. Is print gonna die and all that type of stuff. There’s a lot of that. But print hasn’t died. I mean, if anything, people printing more than ever. It’s really just selective where the audience goes for print.
Rachele Mock 18:30
Why do you think people are printing more than ever? Just out of curiosity.
Don Mock 18:34
Well, there are more people. And I think printing emails. I mean, there still is a need for brochures and certain… it’s industry contingent, that makes sense.
Rachele Mock 18:47
Right, okay.
Don Mock 18:48
There’s less waste, you’re not printing catalogs and things like that as much anymore. Although our junk mail at the house might tell us otherwise.
Rachele Mock 18:56
It’s tapered off. As I unsubscribe from things, it does tend to taper.
Don Mock 19:01
Yeah. I mean, I don’t know, how do you feel about print versus digital? Especially if we talk about what he does, which is books. I mean, obviously, you’ve been doing summer reading. I see you reading physical books.
Rachele Mock 19:14
Oh, my gosh.
Don Mock 19:14
And then handing books to other people and getting books from other people.
Rachele Mock 19:17
Yeah, I don’t know what it was about this summer. But I definitely have made a concerted effort. Maybe because I want to support publishing more and authors more. But I’ve made a concerted effort to spend. I probably have bought a hardcover a week or every other week now and read them and then pass them on. We have some little free libraries in our neighborhood. I’ll put them in there. I mean, I always think it’d be really cool to find a New York Times bestseller in a little free library.
Don Mock 19:53
But do you read on your iPad. I mean, you have your iPad. I mean, I know you read magazines.
Rachele Mock 19:58
So I’ve gone to magazine means and the newspaper on my iPad. But I’m also… when I work, as you know, I listen to podcasts. But I also listen to a lot of audio books. And audiobooks that I really like. I think you and I have had this conversation before. I really, when it’s a memoir read by the author, I really like that.
Don Mock 20:19
That’s cool. Because it’s personal.
Rachele Mock 20:21
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes they’ll break off on, you know, little tangents or things like that. So those are the ways I read. But yeah, for some reason, I think… honestly, thinking about it, there’s this theory that if your kids see you’re reading, that you’ll read. And we’ve had a little bit of Camp Mom this month of July, and I thought that it would be good for the kids to see me reading and that’s one of the things that we do every day, is we take an hour long break.
Don Mock 20:49
And not reading comic books. Just to be clear. Is that what you’re saying?
Rachele Mock 20:53
No, if –
Don Mock 20:55
I’m just kidding, I’m sorry.
Rachele Mock 20:56
No, but if our kid wanted to… actually he’s been reading manga. His reading has been manga, which is, I don’t care what you’re reading as long as you’re reading.
Don Mock 21:03
Yeah. Just read something. Absoluttely.
Rachele Mock 21:04
Yeah. So I mean, I do love print. I think I will and always will. But ya know, my iPad, I’ve delegated that for faster stuff.
Don Mock 21:21
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Super cool.
Rachele Mock 21:23
So did you know, speaking of our kids and reading, Chip did a children’s design book.
Don Mock 21:28
I did not know that.
Rachele Mock 21:29
And it’s really cool. What I really like about it is it’s called Go and it’s called a kidds, K-I-D-D-S, guide to graphic design. And it’s so basic in the way it’s designed, and what you see in it. It’s things like – we’ve talked about this with our kids – just sitting and looking at your cereal box, as you –
Don Mock 21:50
As you eat your cereal?
Rachele Mock 21:50
Eat your cereal in the morning, or you’re throwing a baseball and it has that logo on it. Things like that. Why is your orange juice this way? Or, why is your remote control designed this way? So teaching kids –
Don Mock 22:05
Okay, who is it for? What age group is this for? Is it like little little kids? Like a children’s children’s books? Or is it like a tween kind of a thing?
Rachele Mock 22:13
I mean, I would say, if I had to buy it for somebody – which I should start giving this as a gift, actually.
Don Mock 22:18
Yeah it seems cool.
Rachele Mock 22:18
I’d say between the… I mean, the listing is 10 and up, but I’d say… it says fifth grade. But I’d say anywhere between 8 and 12 would probably enjoy it. Yeah, so I thought that was really cool. It’s gone to paperback last summer.
Don Mock 22:32
Okay, cool. Yeah, well, I’d say, you know, hey, this is our little 20 minute love letter to Chip. I think he’s a really cool dude. I think he’s an interesting designer. We’ve got the love of comics together. I would encourage everybody to do a little cyberstalking and snoop it up and see what appeals to you. A lot of – when you think of Jurassic Park, that logo is synonymous with the movies. I mean, billion dollar property, and he did that. There’s a lot of really cool stuff that he’s done in the past and it was a was a pleasure to meet him and get some book signed and have some stories to tell on a podcast.
Rachele Mock 23:08
Right. Right.
Don Mock 23:09
Alright, cool. Well, I think that’ll wrap it up for today. Where can everybody find us? Rach?
Rachele Mock 23:13
They can find us on the interwebs at mocktheagency. And across all boards.
Don Mock 23:19
Alright. Thanks everybody.
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