Don and Rob dive into the evolving dynamics of client-agency relationships. They share insights on contextual thinking in design, the importance of trusting agency expertise, and the unique challenges of crafting custom solutions for each client. Tune in for tips on fostering creativity and collaboration in the ever-changing world of advertising.
Episode Transcript
Rob (00:00)
Trust the process, but not only the process, trust the, ⁓ I’m a little uncomfortable. Trust the ideas, right? And trust us to do just like you would your attorney or your dentist or anything else. We’ve been doing this for a long, long time. And I think it’s important for clients to remember to trust their agencies and to trust the ideas they’re bringing to the table and ⁓ trust their expertise. And I think sometimes that doesn’t always happen.
Don (00:01)
Yeah.
Alright, we’re back Rob. We’re back. We’re back. We never went anywhere. Alright, we’re back with episode 142. We’re creeping up on 150. Are we gonna do something celebratory for 150? You know, 150 is when we should have done the video. We should have kicked in on the video on 150. That would have been our, that would have been a nice numerology. Just started early, right? ⁓
Rob (00:51)
We’re back. We’re back.
⁓ big plans. Yo, yes.
I don’t know, 140 felt like the right number to me to introduce the video. Yeah. Give
the people what they want. I mean, they’ve been begging for it for so long that, you know.
Don (01:17)
Mm
hmm. I’m okay with that. All right. 142. All right. I thought today’s topic could be ⁓ something interesting as we’re jamming away and you know, everybody at work, know, jam was like, I got some frustrations here, they got some frustrations there, or this person or that person, whatever, no matter what industry you’re in, right. ⁓ So thought today could be kind of fun to do a like, hey, tips for being a better client tips for being like, like how to work with agencies and what kind of frustrates agencies on our side of the fence, right?
and what maybe we wish they knew. That’s the longest title for a podcast ever. ⁓ But that might be search engine friendly because it’s got every word in a word salad there for that, you know, so.
Rob (01:50)
Mmm. Yes.
Yeah. And we’re
going to tread carefully into this topic. We were going to tread. It was just sort of tiptoe around and yeah.
Don (02:02)
Yeah, just just a little like. ⁓ Yeah, yeah,
it’s not full. Well, hey, we’re not calling any of our clients out. We’re not going to name anything or things like that, right? But it’s it’s you know. We’ve got some gray in our in our beards now and we’ve been doing this awhile and things have changed, right? I mean, in terms of not only how advertising and design is consumed out in the world, right? ⁓ But you know, we’ve changed. Clients have changed account.
Rob (02:12)
No.
Don (02:31)
people have changed, like the whole industry has kind of slowly evolved, right? And there are definitely some things about working in 2025, you know, dare I say, that are totally different than working when we both first started, right? And it’s not just the advent of digital cameras and things like that, right? So it’s like, man, I wish that people would think this, you know, we do have some old trusty dusties in terms of how we were brought up, right?
⁓ And I wish the young whippersnappers, you know, would do it this way or that way, you know what I mean? Any type of weird little frustrations like that. So anyway, I’ll go first. ⁓ Since I kind of brought this one up, you know, ⁓ I think a tip number one, drum bump, drum roll would be, you know, we, I wish that I’m just going to rip the bandaid here. I do wish that clients more often than not would think contextually, right? About
Rob (03:02)
Yeah.
Don (03:25)
the designs, the ads, the whatever that we send them over the fence, right? Everybody is working digitally. We’re all working remote basically now. We all sit in our computer, you know, like it’s gone are the days where we go into the conference room and we’ve got boards and we’re going through all that stuff, right? I mean, everything’s faster in this and that, right? So as such, we’re basically sending PDFs around. We’re looking at Google slide decks, you know, we’re doing presentations, things like that, right?
But everything is a one-to-one relationship now, meaning I look at it on my laptop, or I look at it on my phone, I look at it on my screen. And what I mean by contextually is I may be looking at a 20-foot long trade show booth, I may be looking at a business card or something that is post-it sized.
Rob (04:07)
Business
card? What is that? What’s a business card?
Don (04:10)
What’s that? Business card. ⁓
yeah, who knows? ⁓ We just tap phones now. ⁓ So I think, it’s funny, we get feedback back from clients like, hey, can you put a logo here? hey, can you do this? Can you do that? It’s like, yeah, of course we can do that. But you’re not thinking contextually about, ⁓ that is sitting on a counter. Yeah, exactly, should we do that? Yes, there is, we can put a logo there, but that logo is down there at your ankles.
Rob (04:27)
Should we do that?
Don (04:36)
Right? Because you’re just looking at a flat design as a PDF, you know, things like that. Right. So there’s a little bit of extra hand holding now. It seems like there didn’t really necessarily used to be in regards to contextual thinking. Right. And I know, Hey, we’re all busy. We’re all running around a million miles an hour right now. But that is, I don’t know if it’s called a pet peeve, but it’s definitely like, Hey, you know, when you’re, when you’re internalizing things, right. Or when you’re reviewing things from a client perspective, yeah, it might be nice to think about.
utilization and also where it’s going to be right is it in the grocery store next to the competitors is it know things like that you know stuff like that so
Rob (05:13)
Yeah, yeah.
Do we have specific examples?
Don (05:18)
Well…
Rob (05:20)
I would have to name
names, but I’ll start. Like, do you mention trade show booths, right? Or pull up banners, things like that, because apparently trade shows still exist. ⁓ So yeah, you do, you you sometimes you show a client a first pass at a booth or a banner or whatever it is. And, you know, you very purposefully keep the bottom three or four feet clean. We’re not putting copy down there, right, at the floor.
Don (05:26)
Yeah, ⁓
Devoid. Yeah.
Rob (05:48)
And then they go, wait a minute, why did we only design the you know, three quarters or top third of their two thirds of the thing? And you have to remind them, well, no one’s looking down at the ground and reading bullet points on your banner stand.
Don (05:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Also, your kiosk is in front of that information or the table is or people are going to put their book bags down and things like that, right? I mean, that’s that’s that’s a great example of contextual thinking, you know. Yeah, I mean, other stuff would be grocery stores. You know, we design a lot of packaging that goes in grocery stores. We do a lot of point of sale merchandising and things like that, you know, in liquor stores, grocery stores, you know, retail environments, right? ⁓
Rob (06:04)
Yeah, yeah, right.
Mm-hmm.
Don (06:27)
Yeah, it doesn’t matter what the back of the box looks, the back of the shipper carton looks like, whatever, because no one ever sees it ever. know, like those type, or like it’s sandwiched on shelf next to all these other things, right? You know, sure, we’ll throw a logo on the side of the thing. No one’s ever gonna see that, that type of thing. know, so it’s, ⁓ yeah, I think context is important. And I think when you look at something that’s a beautiful, high resolution PDF on your 13 inch laptop, you do lose a little bit of context.
and you have to kind of be reminded, I guess, if that makes any sense.
Rob (07:02)
Yeah,
and I think that holds true for, you know, for campaign work too, right? So like when we, when we pitch ideas, it’s important for clients to think about, which is why we go through the exercise of like the competitive landscape, right? Like, here are all the other ads. Here’s what everybody else is doing in your competitive set. Well, oftentimes you forget that because then you’re shown concepts in a vacuum potentially. And it’s, I love this idea. And it’s like, okay, well, well, let’s think about what everybody else is doing and make sure that we’re
we’re zigging where they’re zagging or we’re zagging where they’re zigging or whatever it is. just being, think, making sure that what you’re doing is ⁓ unique, right? ⁓ To your service or product, right?
Don (07:45)
Yeah, I totally agree. Totally agree. What’s on the top of your list? It’s a number one sort of context, right? What are you thinking on your side?
Rob (07:52)
Well,
think what I’m going to do, what I’m going to say is.
a little bit contrary to where you started, which is, yeah, things have changed and things have evolved, but there are certain things that stay the same, right? And so here’s what I mean by that. And this is gonna sound obvious, but when you ⁓ go to get a root canal with those teeth of yours, where do you go? You go to the root canal specialist, right? You trust them to do their job.
Don (08:00)
I like it. Controversy.
Rob (08:26)
think a lot of times, marketing directors or marketing teams, again, and we always say that we have the most fun, we have the most fun jobs, it’s creative, creative, creative. And so I think oftentimes marketing departments kind of get sucked into that fun, creative space, which isn’t to say that ideas can’t come from there, they can, but ⁓ it’s important, I think, for clients to let agencies do what they do best. ⁓
Don (08:54)
Mmm.
Rob (08:55)
Trust the process, but not only the process, trust the, ⁓ I’m a little uncomfortable. Trust the ideas, right? And trust us to do just like you would your attorney or your dentist or anything else. We’ve been doing this for a long, long time. And I think it’s important for clients to remember to trust their agencies and to trust the ideas they’re bringing to the table and ⁓ trust their expertise. And I think sometimes that doesn’t always happen.
Don (08:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the amount of sometimes revisions we get back where they’ve taken the artwork and cut it up and rearranged it and done whatever. And it’s like, you’re not the art director. Why would you do that? You know, right? I mean, it’s like, can we do that for you? Sure. Here’s why that’s a bad idea. Will we do that for you? Absolutely. You know, we’ll take a look at it, you know, because to your point, Rob, like, great ideas can come from anywhere and you never know, you know, but also, yeah, the, you know, hierarchy of information.
Rob (09:34)
Great.
Don (09:53)
you know, layout proportion design, you know, all that stuff, you know, should be kind of come from a, should kind of come from a, you know, professional that’s been doing this for quite a long time. So I do remember that does remind me like we did a logo project a million years ago for the library out in Richmond, California. Do you remember this? And, you know, busted our hump on doing this library logo, which is like the library logo. It sounds like the most boring project ever. Anyway, did all this stuff. ⁓
Rob (10:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
I do.
Don (10:19)
To your point, this is along your point of great ideas come from God knows where, though, right? Just by devil’s advocate. We got this note back on like, hey, can you do this? And I just remember being like, what the? Like librarians now are coming in hot with art direction, you know? Damn, if that didn’t, it wasn’t the idea that came from them, but it’s what led to the next steps, right? That ended up being like, you know what? Shit, that’s actually, it ended up like,
Rob (10:33)
I’m
Yeah. Yeah.
Don (10:47)
turning the, you know, and was like, wow, this is actually a really interesting idea. Not directly from the note, but it was, you know, yeah, it’s a weird one, man. It’s a, you know, we’re in a tough industry because everyone’s got an opinion. Everyone’s got stylistic, you know, preconceived notions of what they like, right? But to bring it back to my context, just because you like it doesn’t mean…
it’s appropriate for your target audience because you’re the brand manager of XYZ company. That doesn’t mean that it’s actually for you. It’s for your consumers, you know, ⁓ doing websites and stuff like that. It’s, funny. It’s like, Hey, the website’s not for the company, you know, it’s for the consumers of that company. You know what I mean? And trying to get people to kind of their brain around that. It’s like, wow, you know, it’s kind of funny. So
Rob (11:32)
I remember
the poster we did for Richmond Library, which is great. actually hanging up here. The find everything poster, which was cool. ⁓ It’s actually a good reminder for, because it goes, it goes the other way too. Meaning agencies need to be ⁓ receptive to, to ideas, right? And kernels of ideas. And I’ve had a few cases, you know, over the years where it’s absolutely happened where I’ve been working on something and working on something and writing something and whatever it is.
Don (11:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that was a fun one.
Rob (12:03)
and talked to the client about it and then gotten specifically gotten an email that was like, what about this? And it was like a line that somebody had written from not a writer, a client. And it was like, wow, that’s actually really, really good. ⁓ You win, like, you know, and to be able to embrace that and go and see that, you know what, that’s actually a really good idea. Now I’m going to take it and massage it and make it better. Or there have been instances where that’s it. I can’t like you nailed it.
Don (12:09)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rob (12:34)
so I think that just sort of speaks to when, when, when agency client relationships are going really well, you have that open line of communication where you can spit ball ideas back and forth and, and everybody’s okay with not having their idea go forward. And you’re just open to that, you know, and that’s where it just fosters more creativity, better ideas, different perspectives, all of the things. You know,
Don (12:57)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s
funny. Sometimes you do go all the way around the circle with revisions just to end up back where you started. And it’s a little bit of like, see, like, we kind of nailed it. We kind of nailed it to begin with. But then it went from category manager to brand manager to this, all the way around. It’s like, we do kind of know what we’re talking about, you know. ⁓ But yeah, totally, totally. That’s funny.
Rob (13:08)
Yeah, we call that.
Yeah, it’s called going around your ass to get to your elbow is really, it’s how we affectionately refer to it.
Don (13:23)
⁓ Any other weird little thoughts or tips or whatnot for clients? mean, you know, we could say this isn’t a bitch sash on clients by any stretch, you know, ⁓ but you know
you know, in the interest, go ahead, I’m sorry.
Rob (13:38)
I think, well,
just one other thought. think it’s, again, and this has happened since the dawn of advertising times, but I think it’s important for clients to remember that they’ve got to find something unique about what they are saying or communicating, right? Be it their products or their service, sometimes you’ll get a brief or even a verbal brief or a conversation and we have to keep going.
Don (13:54)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah.
Rob (14:06)
Well, wait a minute, but everybody else can say this. Everybody else can say, you know, when it’s not a commodity product, like even when it is a commodity product, you gotta find something that is unique and ownable. Otherwise, you’re just gonna be diluted and watered down. So that’s just a good reminder to think. And it’s not easy to do that oftentimes, but you gotta be different. You gotta have something unique ⁓ to talk about, really.
Don (14:18)
face.
Yeah.
Yeah,
otherwise it’s just a me too. Why, us versus somebody else? And then you just commoditize yourself and it becomes about, you know, price to a certain extent. So yeah, it’s a weird one. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s funny. Every, ⁓ client that we work with it, you know, there are always custom solutions, right? I mean, what we do is kind of intellectual brain power specifically engineered for their communication challenges. Right. So it’s
Rob (14:34)
Right.
Don (14:57)
It isn’t we’re kind of the opposite of what our clients do our clients like make something and then they make this thing over and over and over and over, know what mean? You know, we’re trying to figure out how to sell that, know, but we can’t take what we apply to one company and use it for somebody else. You know what I mean? Like it doesn’t it well, you can do that, but you probably shouldn’t shouldn’t do that, right? Because they’re they’re unique challenges for each individual client, which makes working with each individual client kind of uniquely challenging in and of itself.
Rob (15:05)
Right. Right.
Right.
Don (15:27)
as tongue twistery as that is. yeah, we picked a fun industry to work in, for sure. But it’s interesting how it’s changed over last however many years and the nuances, I guess, thereof, in terms of getting communication out in the world.
Rob (15:44)
Yeah, I mean, I was just wrapped by saying, thankfully, this pertains to none of our clients, which is great. We’ve been very fortunate that, you know, all of our clients are amazing and perfect. But ⁓ for you other agencies struggling out there with difficult clients, this is for you to think about. All right, very good. Well, where can the people find us, ⁓ Don, if they happen to be looking for
Don (15:53)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
I don’t know, there’s probably on the screen somewhere here, here, or here, or there, or wherever. I’m not quite sure. No, everybody can find us at mocktheagency.com or on all the socials at Mock The Agency. Thanks for listening, everybody. We’ll hit you next time.
Rob (16:20)
Thanks for tuning in, we’ll see you for 1.43. Bye.
Don (16:24)
It’s going to be exciting.
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