Episode Transcript
Don Mock 0:21
Right episode 111 Rob Triple one
Rob Broadfoot 0:25
triple one triple one.
Don Mock 0:26
Do you think we’ll get to triple nickel?
Rob Broadfoot 0:28
The triple?
Don Mock 0:29
Yeah 555 Triple nickel. Whatever we see it whenever we see it in
Rob Broadfoot 0:34
I just want to make it to six six six.
Don Mock 0:37
There you go the number of the beast, baby. All right, we can do it we can keep it rockin. I mean these first 111 have flown by. I mean, Never have we ever wondered What to talk about? I mean, there is just it’s been a pleasure.
Rob Broadfoot 0:50
We’ve had to stop ourselves.
Don Mock 0:51
Honestly. Yeah, we’ve had to be like, you have to get back to pace yourself. Yeah, exactly. Alright, 111 we’ve got an interesting topic that our friend Mike brought up. And the idea of is graphic design art? That’s the topic, is graphic design art. Right. Your initial we started talking about it out in the hallway. I was like, oh, let’s do it. Let’s do a podcast about it. Yeah. Right. So in your initial and you said, Hey, shortest podcast ever? Because the answer is yes. Yes. Graphic design is art.
Rob Broadfoot 1:23
I said yes. Just because it’s for commercial purposes, doesn’t mean it’s not art.
Don Mock 1:28
I would agree with that.
Rob Broadfoot 1:29
It’s my kind of my because because that I immediately thought of like, okay, well, is a comic book artist a graphic designer?
Don Mock 1:41
Yes. Okay. Can be. Yeah. I mean, not all of them are. But But yeah, right. Yeah.
Rob Broadfoot 1:47
Okay. And would you consider comic books Art?
Don Mock 1:51
Yes, absolutely. Right. It’s sequential art. I think sequential storytelling. I mean, it’s no different than cave paintings. That’s art. Yeah. Right. I mean, that is a graphic representation of a, either a story or an instance, or a snapshot. It could be an act. Exactly. Eating. Yeah, yeah. Or getting the buffalo or whatever, you know, the woolly rhinoceros or something? Yeah. Right. Yeah, I think you know, the bigger conversation is, is if you talk about the intersection of commerce and art, right, and What graphic design is, does it does it nullify its artistic integrity right. Now, I will say To further complicate this conversation, and to prolong the podcast. You know, I very firmly delineate graphic design in this as instance, from advertising. Right, and we do both, and we commingle a lot together. Right. But graphic design Absolutely. Can be you look at like, award winning graphic design posters and things like that. Right. Yeah, that are talking about war in the Middle East, or there’s, you know, like different sorts of topics, right. Graphic design can absolutely be artistic and absolutely can be art. And those artists, you know, designers can be paid handsomely for that. But that doesn’t nullify the fact that is art
Rob Broadfoot 3:05
I would argue this too, like, okay, client comes to us and says, We need a poster. Great. We design the poster, and then we charge them for that poster or selling a piece of art. Yeah. commercial art of commercial art. Yeah, but how okay, how is that any different than I’m an artist, I painted a painting and I just went sold it to somebody. How is that? Well, I mean, you’re still trading art for money
Don Mock 3:32
yes. I guess well, is your example is still firmly entrenched in the graphic design. sort of topic or arena. Are you talking about
Rob Broadfoot 3:43
I’m talking about art design. It doesn’t matter. To me, it doesn’t matter.
Don Mock 3:48
Well, I don’t know. I you know, advertising to me is not art. I know that sounds crazy. But like, I think graphic design can absolutely be artistic and it can be an art form. Right? Is advertising art?
Rob Broadfoot 4:07
Yes.
Don Mock 4:08
it is art.
Rob Broadfoot 4:09
I think it is
Don Mock 4:10
okay. All right. And here I am. I’m the one saying it’s not
Rob Broadfoot 4:13
I think it is it’s a creative discipline. And I think you can I mean
Don Mock 4:17
Win free concert tickets by drinking this tasty beverage enter for your chance to win. I mean, that’s not that’s promotion. But still it’s advertising it’s you know, yeah, I
Rob Broadfoot 4:25
mean, I think there’s different there’s varying degrees right. So there’s yes, if it’s, if it’s that if it’s a promo postcard. Yeah. With a coke can or to win whatever. Is that as artistic? No.
Don Mock 4:40
What about an ad that’s in People Magazine for Oreos? That could be art.
Rob Broadfoot 4:44
Yeah. Absolutely.
Don Mock 4:45
Okay. Interesting.
Rob Broadfoot 4:46
Interesting. I think you totally can. Yeah, I mean,
Don Mock 4:48
I feel like advertising just as is. I mean, I guess I mean, I hear What you’re saying. But if it feels like yucky art, you know What I mean? It’s not it’s not highfalutin art, if that makes sense.
Rob Broadfoot 4:58
Doesn’t feel pure. okay so So would you would you agree that movies are art? Or like a movie like a film? Is that a piece of art?
Don Mock 5:09
Wow, that okay, I hadn’t hadn’t considered this ever. I’m gonna say yes, I’m gonna say movies are artistic. And I think that actors are artists, you know, for sure. I even think that there. I mean, there’s a tremendous amount of artistic need for everyone collaborating in a movie, and movies are made by 1000s of people. So
Rob Broadfoot 5:30
if a movie is art, then if I pay you to drive a Volkswagen in that movie. And you agree to that? Does that all of a sudden, make the movie an ad?
Don Mock 5:46
I see where you’re going here with like a product placement scenario.
Rob Broadfoot 5:49
I mean, does that does that change?
Don Mock 5:51
Does it cheapen it? No I don’t.
Rob Broadfoot 5:53
so that doesn’t change the
Don Mock 5:55
No, but is the Volkswagen commercial .Hey, everybody jetters are on sale. It’s the sign and drive Jetta thingamajiggy whatever this summer, come get 599 blah blah. All that stuff. I don’t consider that art. I mean, I feel like that’s a commercial. You know, also to like advertising, by definition is a interruption to whatever experience you are having. Right?
Rob Broadfoot 6:22
so the person who designs the ad isn’t a graphic designer. What would their job title be?
Don Mock 6:30
They’re an art director. Okay. Yeah.
Rob Broadfoot 6:31
So they’re an art director. Yeah.
Don Mock 6:33
So are they an artist? Okay, I see where you are going
Rob Broadfoot 6:38
It’s a blurry line. And there is no right answer of course.
Don Mock 6:41
Yeah. I mean, you know, there’s a you know, if we want to venture into fine art in regards to this conversation, the easiest one to pick on. Is Lichtenstein right, the the famous pop artists right and all the pop art and a lot of flack on is that art come on, like What are you talking and all that stuff, right? But Lichtenstein Of who 100% verified, just blatantly ripped off comic book artists. Like, oh, we took a Jack Kirby panel or whatever, right? And we just enlarge that panel and painted, it didn’t change literally anything. Right? So it was, Hey, I didn’t change the colors. I didn’t change the composition. I didn’t change the dot pattern. I changed nothing. I took, you know, a comic book strip or a panel, excuse me, a panel, you know, and then made it you know, What?
Rob Broadfoot 7:30
ginormous
Don Mock 7:30
Yeah, like, you know, 80 inches wide or whatever. And then sold that for tons of money, right? And got hung in museums and things like that, right? And then that became a like, well, hold on a second here. Is that really like It’s art? Like What? And not only is it art, but it’s like just blatant plagiarism. I mean,
Rob Broadfoot 7:47
it just took somebody’s work and made it bigger. Yeah, yeah.
Don Mock 7:51
Is that art? I mean, you know, yes, the whole world has agreed for, you know, 50 plus years. That is art. Right now. It’s a different conversation about ethics. You know, What I mean? Should Lichtenstein’s family and estate and everything still be benefiting from all that? I don’t know. I’m not smart enough to answer that question, you know, other pop artists, you know, and you know, you could think about the Campbell’s Soup, you know, and the Marilyn Monroe and all the Andy Warhol stuff, right. Yeah. Well, well, but the Campbells like Marilyn Monroe, okay, whatever,
Rob Broadfoot 8:23
but his was an interpretation.
Don Mock 8:25
Yeah, well, but the Campbell’s Soup cover, not cover. But you know, the Campbell soup can, the tomato soup can, right, is just.. I don’t wanna say reprinting, but I’m gonna say reprinting the existing design of the Campbell’s Soup can at that time, right, you know, it’s it’s the packaging right. Now, we’ve got it in all the different colors, we’re doing different things with it, and we’re doing you know, but that was that is packaged design, right, that somehow manage you to become, you know, fine art to a certain extent. Right. So I mean, that’s an interesting kind of thought
Rob Broadfoot 9:01
I think fundamentally, the commerce doesn’t commerce, to me as a concept does not dictate whether or not something is art.
Don Mock 9:12
I agree. I mean, artists have to be paid for their work.
Rob Broadfoot 9:15
Yeah, I mean, pay to go to the High Museum of Art. So I don’t think that
Don Mock 9:21
Or XYZ painter or illustrator, I love that painting You did of a tiger. Will you paint me a bear? You know what I mean, Here’s money for you to paint, you know, that doesn’t devalue that amazing painting of a tiger or a bear. Yeah. So it’s, you know, Okay, so we’re both totally in agreement that commerce has nothing to do
Rob Broadfoot 9:41
I think commerce doesn’t dictate whether something is art or not.
Don Mock 9:45
I guess for me, it’s a sliding scale of You know, going down to
Rob Broadfoot 9:51
I would agree with that.
Don Mock 9:52
The sweepstakes banner ad. Are websites art? Yeah.
Rob Broadfoot 9:59
Are websites art? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, digital media can be. there’s digital art installations. And yeah
Don Mock 10:05
We had a developer that had his physical thing in the office, remember that
Rob Broadfoot 10:11
his physical thing?
Don Mock 10:12
remember when Dave had his installation, he had an artistic installation,
Rob Broadfoot 10:18
and we just 3d printed.
Don Mock 10:20
Yeah, it was all sorts of stuff was a bunch of Arduinos and a bunch of lights or whatever that it was for those that have no idea What we’re talking about, because we barely know What we’re talking about. It was a 3d physical installation in a gallery. And he had been working on it with his wife for a number of months. And then after the show was like, hey, whatever happened to that? He’s like, Oh, it’s just in our house. I was like, Dude, you should bring it to the office. Put it in here, you know, and it was a, I’m gonna totally botch this. But it basically was this tall, collapsible accordion lamp, right? For lack of so you know, not a whole bunch of like, pistons and gears and Arduinos and whatever. And it had all these different lights, LED light colors inside this. I’m gonna call it a lampshade, like, yeah, accordion looking lampshade. Right. Yeah. And it was a physical display of anxiety. So it had all these motion sensors. So the closer you get to it, right? It would literally compress itself, it would like shrink, you know What I mean? And like, come down, and it would change colors. And then when no one was near it, and you backed away? It would then like, like, reveal itself? It would it would like, stand back.
Rob Broadfoot 11:20
I don’t remember.
Don Mock 11:21
You don’t remember that at all? It changed colors it was awesome. Well, by the end, it was like, Yeah, which was just kind of sitting here.
Rob Broadfoot 11:28
I don’t remember the interactive.
Don Mock 11:31
Well, it worked the first week or so. And then maybe it started, you know, not work so well. I don’t know. And then it ended up and they brought it home, you know, which I assume it’s still there somewhere. So. But yeah, it was pretty, you know, but I would consider that art, even though that’s all like pistons and digital sensors and lights and things like that. That’s definitely artistic. And that’s, you know, and those two guys are artists in their own respect.
Rob Broadfoot 11:54
So I mean, at the end of the day, it’s I agree that it is a sliding scale from fine art, to you know, commercial art, the lowest common denominator of commercial art, whatever that happens to be. But and then it’s subjective is something art. I don’t know. Maybe to me, it is maybe to you it isn’t.
Don Mock 12:12
Yeah, yeah. You know, photography, photography is art,
Rob Broadfoot 12:17
for me is absolutely art.
Don Mock 12:18
Yeah. I totally agree. Right. But the subject matter of What the photograph is, has no bearing on if it’s if it’s art or not. Correct.
Rob Broadfoot 12:26
Correct. Yeah, The medium is art.
Don Mock 12:34
I was just thinking about like, the, you know, what’s the lowest form of the sliding scale being like, oh, man, all the like, whatever is stuck to a telephone pole. Or shellacked onto a wall. You know What I mean? Like that sort of promotionally like, janky, whatever. But those things are awesome. You know, and some of those, like posters and flyers and things like that are super cool. And then we I know, we’ve all seen those great photos and textures of like, others, like a million staples in this. Yeah, you know, and they’re all rusted and all you know that. I mean, that’s a very artistic. Yeah. You know,
Rob Broadfoot 13:07
I mean, I think I think that there is an art to creating ads. I would think about it that way. So I would think about like, okay, yeah, there is like a book a great novel, The Great Gatsby. Is that art?
Don Mock 13:20
Sure. novelists are artists, right?
Rob Broadfoot 13:23
Yeah. crafting an amazing headline is, is the same thing, meaning I have 26 letters to play with, and I’m going to arrange them in a way that is entertaining or captivating, or whatever it is to attract a reader.
Don Mock 13:43
Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, you when you get the inspiration and it hits, and you craft that amazing piece of power of persuasion, I think that that there is an art form. Yeah, for sure. You know,
Rob Broadfoot 13:56
we’re artists dammit. Yeah.
Don Mock 14:00
Well, we talked about, like, you know, training the brain and how to become like, you know, how to get in the rhythm and how to, you know, when you’re not in the rhythm, how to do it and stuff like that. And, you know, there is I guess muscle memory associated with it. But, but there also is you have to pull inspiration from life. And that’s What artists do. And there’s, you have to be aware of your surroundings. And you know, and it has to be relevant for that time. And then, but from you know, if we apply back to the original question, graphic design, there is something interesting and timeless about graphic design, right? Graphic designers, the anti-fashion Right? It should be well, unless it’s specifically seasonal, of course, yeah, whatever you’re designing, but you know, there is an argument to be made for design to be timeless and things like that. So
Rob Broadfoot 14:41
What would you This is our spin off question. Yeah. What would you how would you delineate between art direction and graphic design? Because they are, a lot of people consider them two different things. They overlap a lot.
Don Mock 14:58
Yeah. Well, there is there is Uh, there are two different job titles. Definitely right now. And I guess is is art director like the more superior job title to graphic designer? I guess it is. I don’t know that it is. But I’m thinking about like large agency land, like how things are structured? Oh, yeah. So how, What was the question again, I totally derailed
Rob Broadfoot 15:20
What’s the difference between an art director and graphic designer? I’ll phrase it that way.
Don Mock 15:23
I think the way that the way that I’ve explained it is the ability to conceptualize, and it’s more than just it’s more than just looking a certain way. It’s more about it becoming like an art director thinks more not only about What it looks like, but then again, back to the power of persuasion. What is it compel somebody to do? You know, it’s more, it’s like adding extra senses. On top of just What does it look like, right? Because a graphic designer can say, hey, I want it to look retro, I want it to look vintage, I want it to look modern, I want it to look right fashion, I want it to look like this or whatever that. But I think purpose and rationale and meaning is potentially What that next level up on top of graphic design is right? And was starts to think about into art direction. It’s not only like, hey, it’s not only why does it look this way, but why are we even thinking about it doing that?
Rob Broadfoot 16:21
I think purpose is a good word to describe it. What is the purpose of this? So it’s to sell more cars or it’s to make look delicious.
Don Mock 16:31
Yeah. Structurally, too. I think that there’s more. Because you are a director, right? Technically, you’re you’re managing potentially teams or other people around the team or whatever the project may be. So there’s more responsibility traditionally than a traditional graphic designer,
Rob Broadfoot 16:48
a graphic designer, doesn’t think about, I’m trying to figure out how to because that’s a fine line. Like, like, but I think purpose is is the key word. The art director thinks about the purpose of, you know, of creating the art, the graphic designer just creates the art. Yeah. And of course, it’s inspired and has meaning.
Don Mock 17:12
Yeah, yeah, I think when I taught at the circus, and I know you taught a Portfolio Center, you know, the paths were different from an education perspective. And there was more conceptual development, I think, on the art director side, and it was a little bit more collaborative with copywriters and it was a little bit more trying to answer the question, why? Yeah, a little bit more. Why, why are we doing this? which ties into your purpose, right? Why would somebody react a certain way after seeing a piece of creative that I that I developed, right. And then oh, why are we doing the piece of creative that we’re doing? Why don’t we do this one instead? You know, like,
Rob Broadfoot 17:47
Because we want somebody to act on it and not just admire it.
Don Mock 17:51
Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a tough question, though. You know, and it’s, there’s no, there’s no right answer. Yeah. There’s, well, there’s no universal answer for different stages of, you know, agency life for or design firms, things like that. Right. Both of them. I would still consider artists though. You know, yeah. Yeah. So,
Rob Broadfoot 18:13
Alright, we solved it. We’re artists. Yeah.
Don Mock 18:16
We’re artists dammit. I think that’s the the phrase that pays for today
Rob Broadfoot 18:19
We’re are artists dammit.
Don Mock 18:20
Well drop us a note. Let us know if you think graphic design is art or not.
Rob Broadfoot 18:23
We can create some art for you.
Don Mock 18:25
Yeah, exactly. Where can people find us if they want to create that art Rob?
Rob Broadfoot 18:28
www.mocktheagency.com of course. And then on the socials @mocktheagency Of course. All right. And there you have it. We’ll see you next time for 112
Don Mock 18:42
Yep. All right. Thanks everybody.
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