Episode Transcript
Don Mock 0:20
All right, we’re back everybody, Episode 71. We have a special guest. Our friend Jantzen Cole is sitting with us. Say hello to the people, Jantzen.
Jantzen Cole 0:27
Hey, good morning.
Don Mock 0:28
Yeah. All right, Jantzen. Do you want me to do your intro? Or do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself or whatever? Jantzen is one of our clients. So I’m very happy that he’s sitting here. He agreed to this punishment in the morning.
Jantzen Cole 0:41
I’ll introduce myself. So I’m Jantzen Cole. I run marketing over at a company here in Atlanta called Artelon. We are in the, I guess, sports medicine, orthopedic space.
Don Mock 0:54
Yep. That’s, that’s how I’d describe it, too. Your flagship… So we’ve been working with you guys for how long? You can tell all my show prep for this. I mean, it’s been a number of years.
Jantzen Cole 1:05
You predated me, probably by a year.
Don Mock 1:07
Okay. And you’ve been there, how long?
Jantzen Cole 1:09
I’ve been there a little over five years.
Don Mock 1:10
Okay. Wow. All right.
Jantzen Cole 1:11
So six for you.
Don Mock 1:12
Yeah, so we’ve been rocking together for about six years. Yeah. We helped develop a lot of the brand materials, a lot of the rules, regulations, how we sort of display the brand, talk about the brand. Then sent you on your way, right?
Jantzen Cole 1:26
You did.
Don Mock 1:27
So you guys are what I like to consider, one of our dangerous clients. Here’s what I mean by that, you guys are savvy enough to crack open stuff and do your own things. You don’t need us for every single step. I mean, we have some clients that, they can’t do anything without us. We do every single project, every single everything for him. But with you guys, I think we have some fun touchpoints, develop a lot of materials or packaging and whatnot around a certain product, and then send it to you guys. And you guys go, and run and do your thing. It’s a beautiful partnership, I think. Should we talk a little bit about what your flagship product is? What you feel comfortable sharing out on the interwebs?
Jantzen Cole 2:04
For sure, yeah. We’re kind of almost getting a little long in the tooth on our flagship product. Effectively when we started… we have a really clever material. It’s novel in the orthopedic space, because it is it’s intended to kind of reinforce when you’re doing repairs of tendons and ligaments. Unique to us is that the product is elastic, and it’s ultimately replaced by the body over time. So that gives us some interesting talking points. When I first started, when you first started working with us, we essentially had this material. It’s super cool. We put it in the hands of the surgeon and go here. You figure out how to leave it behind. We don’t have anything to help you here. Yeah. So over the next two, three years, it became a big focus for us to develop the tools and the anchors and things to really complete the system. Not only, we’re providing a pretty, impactful and unique material, but trying to help facilitate the case, the operation being efficient and the most effective way.
Don Mock 3:15
Absolutely. You guys have kind of specialized now in foot and ankle. Is that correct?
Jantzen Cole 3:19
We have. Philosophically, we make just as much sense in the knee or shoulder.
Don Mock 3:24
But you got to start somewhere, man.
Jantzen Cole 3:25
Yeah and I mean, you work with small companies all the time. It’s very important that you know where to say no, as much as it’s important that you know where to say yes.
Don Mock 3:37
Well, I mean, you’re talking about the product. If I was to take that exact same conversation and use it as an analogy for marketing, it’s… Think about a billboard. You can’t say everything to everyone all at once. In an emphasis to try to say too much, you end up saying nothing at all. So when you are a smaller company, or startup, I’m not saying that you guys are right now, but you got to start the sentence somewhere. You have to start doing something somewhere. So it’s, Hey let’s pick a part of the body that makes the most sense, that has the most applications. Then just start going there. I think, at one point, there was a thumb situation or something. There are some elbows, there’s some knees, hey, it makes a lot of sense to start with foot and ankle and start going there. Do we still talk about it? So the product is called Flex Band. It is this interesting Terminator material, which I love to say. Because it is that interesting confluence of mechanics and biology, right?
Jantzen Cole 4:31
Yeah.
Don Mock 4:33
Do we still talk about it from that perspective, in terms of that intersection of biology and technology, and then how the product degrades over time?
Jantzen Cole 4:41
We do. It’s been interesting to watch our market mature. Yeah, I think when we started this conversation, we understood all that because we nerd out in it. But the conversation was kind of more than the market needed.
Don Mock 4:57
Sure. Sure.
Jantzen Cole 4:57
And the elastic part was out the gate- “Wee like this.”
Don Mock 5:01
Yeah, absolutely.
Jantzen Cole 5:02
As we’ve matured, and we’ve done a good job of communicating the value of that feature of the product, the biological piece has been gaining steam. I would say, kind of real time, the biological piece is a real quick one, too now. In the past, it was like, I mean, if you really want to go there, we can do that. But we won’t bury you in that today. We think we can probably present a compelling case without even getting to that.
Don Mock 5:30
Well, it’s interesting working with companies like you guys. Because yes, to your point, you invent something. Oh, my God, we got this amazing thing. We created this. It’s amazing. You know why you invented it, and why it was created. Then you share that with the world. You tell everybody, oh my god, here’s the top 10 things, why it’s awesome. It’s this and this is, but then you do have to- and this is where patience is key and expertise and your involvement- you have to be able to understand what the field is adopting to, and be able to shift your messaging and your strategies and your marketing according to how it’s being adopted. What is really resonating with surgeons, all that kind of stuff. To use us as a case study, it’s like, hey, we were in business for five years, and we thought we knew what everybody else knew about us. It wasn’t until we started getting a couple of comments, “oh, I didn’t know you guys did that.” From some of our clients. It’s like, what? That’s all we do for this other client over here. How could they not know that we did this? And it was like, alright, stop, full timeout for a minute. You know, we’re so busy head down rockin and rollin and doing things, it is important, even for us. We surveyed our own, not doctors. But we surveyed our own clients and be like, hey, what do you think about us? We ran this funny exercise called the Larry Papers. And tried to determine what… we know what we think we are. But we need to make sure what everybody else out in the world thinks we are. Then that helped evolve us as a company, too. Even though, Jantzen, none of our services have really changed. I mean, technology’s changed- social media. There’s other avenues of marketing and things that we work in, from when we started 15 years ago till now. So there’s new tactics, but the day to day basically hasn’t changed. Our philosophy hasn’t changed, the way we work hasn’t changed. Always different. But it was, oh, wait a minute, a few years into this, we need to make sure that what we think we’re saying out into the world, is actually what the world is thinking of us. Come to find out, that absolutely wasn’t the case. I mean, I’m brave enough to admit that on a podcast. That was like, “whoa, wait a minute.” So what you think, you know, sometimes you don’t really know. I imagine developing new technology. It’s even harder for new technology, because you have developed a methodology of how to repair your body in a new and different way. Sometimes I know, surgeon conversions can be difficult, because it’s like, Hey, I’ve done this a certain way for 10 or 15 years. Why should I? Like, I know what works. It’s, oh, no, this one is better, and here’s why. So it’s interesting to hear you. I’m just rattling on here. Again, you’re just nodding your head. I’m doing all the talking. Janssen. you’re supposed to be talking. But it’s praddling on. Then stopping and then realizing, Okay, wait a minute, we’ve been selling it this way. You’re not selling. We’ve been talking about ourselves this way. But then you got to evolve and change that message based on how the market is reacting.
Jantzen Cole 8:33
That certainly happened with us. It’s still happening right now.
Don Mock 8:36
I just want on like a 10-minute soliloquy.
Jantzen Cole 8:38
It’s good. Man, it’s all true. We’ve lived through, that we currently live through that. Like you, in the world of marketing, in my space, I think the older I get, the more I realize how comfortable I have to be walking into my insecurities, and asking the questions maybe I don’t want that know the answers to.
Don Mock 8:59
Yeah, self reflective.
Jantzen Cole 9:02
Artelon has gone through that, continues to go through that. But every time I do it, you gain insights to yourself, that you didn’t… certainly the message of it… even you start to realize, Man, I’m so biased in this tactic or this type of talk.
Don Mock 9:18
That’s interesting.
Jantzen Cole 9:20
And frankly, it’s part of why I’ve intentionally tried to keep relationships with people like you, who are not in my not in my world every day, but are wildly creative, because I can get one inspiration but two. I can get real feedback from a real human being who’s not in my echo chamber.
Don Mock 9:39
Yeah, outside feedback.
Jantzen Cole 9:41
I think that I have gained a lot from friends like you. Even in simple conversations that you don’t even realize I take home and have made big changes in the way I think about.
Don Mock 9:51
I’m having significant impact in people’s lives.
Jantzen Cole 9:53
Absolutely.
Don Mock 9:55
Here’s what’s awesome to hear you say, though. I having a love fest moment right now, honestly, because when we do onboard new clients or when we have new business conversations with potential new clients, one of the things I do- thos sounds like a commercial for me, but- one of the things I do, is I purposely mentioned the fact that we do work in multiple industries. We work in medical orthopedic, we also work in food and beverage and things that are in the grocery store, we work in higher education, we work in commercial construction. I always tell people, Hey, why am I telling you this? Because I think it’s important that you know that we have variety as the spice. and we’re learning a lot of different things from a lot of different industries. It’s a two-fold benefit for clients, I think. One you never know, where you may have leverage learnings from another industry that can be applied to your industry. Because consumers are consumers. Or b2b, and things like that. The number two is, from just a sheer creative perspective, we are not only working in one industry, that is not, to your point, what you totally picked up on, it’s not homogenized, and you’re not in that echo chamber. We don’t only work in medical orthopedic stuff, and only show old people doing yoga and riding bicycles on the beach.
Jantzen Cole 11:06
You know, I think that honestly, that’s where…
Don Mock 11:09
So it’s awesome to hear you say that. I say that all the time. But now I’ve got a client actually reinforcing one of the benefits of working with us.
Jantzen Cole 11:16
100%. I will indict myself. I mean, for those of you that are not in medical device, and you are marketing people, I would tell you that medical device marketing is not very progressive.
Don Mock 11:31
I was gonna, I was about to interrupt you and say “Choose your words carefully, my friend.”
Jantzen Cole 11:35
It’s not very progressive.So it’s often very sterile. It’s very unpredictable. There are reasons for that.
Don Mock 11:43
Yeah, sure. Making claims, things like that.
Jantzen Cole 11:47
But the backside of it is, if left just at that, it’s not only very the same as everyone else. If you’re gonna make a profession, it’s not very fun. So, for me, working with you, it’s just, I look at every other industry around me. I mean, there’s so many exciting and cool and creative things happening out here. Trying to bring some of that little pieces into our model.
Don Mock 12:18
Yeah, why can’t we do that here?
Jantzen Cole 12:21
I’m by no means the greatest one out there at it. But I look for people who are the best at it. And that’s why I’m here.
Don Mock 12:29
Oh, my God, we’re feeling the love. Thanks, man. Appreciate that. It’s not about being radically crazy. It’s not like, oh, we took Nikes marketing plan and put it into orthopedic space. I shared an example on a previous podcast about another device company that did a non-rotational suture device. The line we wrote on a t-shirt was “Don’t screw yourself.” Is that the wildest craziest idea? No, but in that space, and in that category, it has meaning and relevance. It does have that irreverence, that you are being a little left of center, a little right of center. You’re just not doing what everybody else is doing. That funny little humor tied in about hey, yeah, we don’t have a screw. It’s a different methodology of how to reattach ligaments and whatnot. So it’s kind of fun.
Jantzen Cole 13:18
I think you, especially when you’re little. Small, startup, even in the early growth phase, you-
Don Mock 13:24
Take more risks?
Jantzen Cole 13:25
Well, people are making decisions on you initially, because the people in the building, so when I had the opportunity, I wanted to, even on our marketing, share a little bit about like, “This is what we would like to have at dinner.”
Don Mock 13:38
Yeah.
Jantzen Cole 13:39
If you spend time with myself, or Aaron or Mark or Shape, the people that are on our team, you’re gonna find us funny, casual, maybe a little self-depreciating. We intend to be, also, well-buttoned-up from a understanding and a science standpoint. So if you see what we attempt to do with our ads and marketing and that sort of stuff, that’s the flavor that I’ve intended to put out. Now as you grow, you lose the ability to make your brand as authentically relatable as you can when you’re small. But we still have that luxury right now. We’re probably getting close to where that’s gonna outgrow us a little bit.
Don Mock 14:19
Yeah. Well, I think it’s important. What I’m taking away from this is that tone of voice, personality of the brand, is important. That can be a differentiator. It’s not oh, we’re just another… once you get to Johnson & Johnson, and Smith and Nephew, and the other giant. They’re gigantic corporations. That’s not knocking those corporations. But it’s Hey, how do you position yourself in the marketplace initially? Tone of voice and attitude does matter. Even if it’s not brash and obnoxious, it’s not trying to be the zany, just for zany’s sake. But it’s Hey, to have a little attention thrown your way. “Oh, let’s check out what those guys are doing. That’s pretty cool.” You know? Um, what do you think is one of the biggest challenges of marketing in the medical orthopedic space? I mean, is it the dryness? Or is it that people are stuck in their ways? Adoption of new materials? What do you think?
Jantzen Cole 15:15
I would say something that’s unique to medical device is that you have multiple customers you have to get to commit to make a decision. So 10 years ago, if a surgeon liked your product, a physician like your product, you could really drive at home. Today it is a local hospital, which is usually part of a regional or national chain, so you have both of those stakeholders that have to go, “Okay, This fits with our business model.” That’s usually driven by a surgeon going, “I would like to have this option available.” Then more and more, the patient voice is starting to rise as an influence.
Don Mock 15:57
I’m happy to hear you say that.
Jantzen Cole 15:58
So as a marketer, each one of those stakeholders is looking for very different reasons to make a decision. This may be some naivety to other industries, but it feels like in a lot of industries, your point of transaction is fairly centralized. I feel like ours is getting more and more decentralized.
Don Mock 16:22
Surgeons want it because it’s better outcomes or easier procedure or faster procedure, whatever. Procurements always gonna say, what is the cost? Then you’re gonna have, is it reimbursable by XYZ insurance or Medicare, Medicaid, things like that. It’s interesting to hear you bring up patients. I would say, in my experience, and again, feel free to jump on this. But in my experience, 15 years ago, no patient knew what was going in their body, meaning nobody knew if they were putting a Nike, Puma, Adidas, anything, whatever device inside their body. You had no clue who made your hip implant, your knee replacement, or your Artelon device. 15 years ago, all you cared about was what is the surgery? You trust your doctor. So it was, hey, when you cut me open, what’s going to happen? And then what’s the recovery time? That whole middle part, which is what you guys do and build. It boggled my mind that nobody knew what those things were. I’m having spinal fusion. But I don’t know who makes the- I mean, it’s so strange. But over the course of 15 years- I think this is, actually, a benefit to the internet, and to digital marketing and things like that- is patients are more savvy than ever and understanding the bioscience, that is being put into their body and what they can expect from that. I mean, would you agree with that?
Jantzen Cole 17:46
Yes, I think the average patient is much more educated on what their diagnosis is, what that means.
Don Mock 17:56
Although my doctor always says “stay away from Dr. Google, because all roads lead to death.” When you look at it, you’re like, I got a hangnail what’s going on? And then it’s like, oh, you may get an infection. Webmd says, I may die in six weeks. I mean, we’re laughing. It’s not a joke. But there is definitely some truth to… folks out there, do not diagnose yourself from Dr. Google.
Jantzen Cole 18:14
Everybody comes in with some information. I think in the past, it was more like, I’m just here. Tell me what I need to do.
Don Mock 18:20
That’s a great point, actually.
Jantzen Cole 18:21
It may be good, may be bad. But there is information that’s available. I think, where it kind of moves back to marketing and where things have started to shift, is some of the more progressive companies… you get a technology out there, you promote it well to patients, often through social. Then you create some sort of link from the patient visibility to, here’s where you can find a doctor in your area that uses this technology. And then when you start to see those practices get people who show up, go “I’m here because I saw this.” Now the patients are starting to drive decision-making.
Don Mock 18:59
Yeah, we were just talking about the “I want my MTV” marketing strategy. That ground up, that pull through. 10 years ago, 15 years, that never happened now. So it is it is really interesting how the kind of the democratization of marketing goes not only from hospitals, but surgeons and doctors and practices, but then also to patients. So yeah, cool stuff, man. It’s good challenge. Well, can you believe it? It’s already been like, 20 minutes. These go quick, don’t they?
Jantzen Cole 19:31
I think great, man.
Don Mock 19:32
Yeah, man. Super fun. Thanks for coming on.
Jantzen Cole 19:34
Sure.
Don Mock 19:34
You should definitely come back again.
Jantzen Cole 19:36
Will do it.
Don Mock 19:37
I always like to ask everybody this, just because it’s fun. Favorite brand, add. or design. Doesn’t have to be medical-related, just anything as a person. I always like to get people’s temperature checks on what brands they love, or if there’s been a recent campaign or a classic campaign or whatever. You know what I mean?
Jantzen Cole 19:57
As a school of thought, I mean, I’ll go very predictable. Nike has always been a favorite.
Don Mock 20:03
I thought you were gonna go apple. Okay Nike, you like Nike.
Jantzen Cole 20:07
Nike. I like Nike because they rarely feature a product, they feature an aspiration and a feel.
Don Mock 20:12
It’s the spirit of competition. That’s what they sell.
Jantzen Cole 20:15
But more recently, I have been utterly fascinated by Liquid Death.
Don Mock 20:21
Liquid Death. We did a podcast about liquid death actually.
Jantzen Cole 20:24
How they have taken an absolute commodity.
Don Mock 20:27
Yeah. Water.
Jantzen Cole 20:28
And turned it into something that’s a must-have. It gets buzz. and people… the fact that you and I know their name in a space that’s got 1000 competitors. It’s water.
Don Mock 20:42
Yeah. I mean, you could say that Fiji’s marketing campaign and design is diametrically opposed to Liquid Death. But they both do exactly the same thing. They sell water. So I mean, and again, I can’t think of anything off the top of my head. But it begs the question, is there a solitary product? Is there any product out there, that has literally 180-degree difference on one company’s approach versus another company’s approach? I mean, I can’t think of anything off top my head. But it’s fascinating, right? That Liquid Death is the name of… it’s crazy. You can argue why it’s great and why it’s bad. I love that you picked up on that. I love that you mentioned Liquid Death.
Jantzen Cole 21:24
It gives me hope, because no matter what your widget is, if those guys can make cans of water exciting and interesting to the rest of us, then the only boundaries are how clever you are and how much fun you want to have.
Don Mock 21:40
Absolutely. Liquid death. All right, cool. All right. Where can everybody find you, if they want to find you?
Jantzen Cole 21:44
So I’m pretty active on LinkedIn.
Don Mock 21:46
Jantzen Cole?
Jantzen Cole 21:47
Jantzen Cole on LinkedIn.
Don Mock 21:48
Nice. Artelon?
Jantzen Cole 21:50
Artelon is there as well.
Don Mock 21:51
Cool.
Jantzen Cole 21:51
We’re also on Instagram and Twitter.
Don Mock 21:53
Cool. Cool. Cool. All right. Well, thanks, everybody. You can find us at mocktheagency.com and on the socials @mocktheagency. We will chat with you next time. Thanks Jantzen. Super fun.
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